Altered Maps 2: Uber-Yugoslavia FTW

[RedRalph]

In the south there is also:
Aswan 1,1m
Qena 3,0m
Sohag 3,7m
Asyut 3,4m
Minya 4,2m
Beni Suef 2,3m

did not know that!

 

[Dachs]

Because Lithuania was at that time a sparsely populated forest with less then around 100,000 people in total? compared to our around 10-15 Million people?

I seem to recall some dude Jogaila becoming king of Poland.

 

[TheLastOne36]

I seem to recall some dude Jogaila becoming king of Poland.

It was a political marriage. The queen of Poland married the King of Lithuania starting the Jagiellon Period where we kicked Germany's butt, and turned Lithuania into a modern (for those times) Christian country.

Jagiello was considered a Polish King as he ruled from Krakow not from some puny village in Lithuania.

Also i don't understand Weik's map, can somebody explain it to me? Seems interesting.

 

[warpus]

Stop talking about Poland

 

[Tani Coyote]

@warpus' map

Let's do a reverse Stalin! I propose Germany's borders extend to cover Silesia, Poznan, and Danzig, and in exchange, Poland's borders can move further east to occupy Latvia, the Ukraine and more of Russia!

Edit: And maybe the former East Prussia too... Kalinigr- I mean, Konigsberg, would make a nice addition.

 

[warpus]

You mean Królewiec

 

[North King]

It was a political marriage.

Well duh. The point is that if you make a political marriage, then both sides think they were gaining something, and the Poles would not have done this for a stretch of useless woods. The Lithuanians had something.

Jagiello was considered a Polish King as he ruled from Krakow not from some puny village in Lithuania.

Rural =/= Lesser, and Seat of Government =/= Heartland. Especially in the period we're talking about; you're making an argument based on the mechanics of a 20th century nation state when no such thing exists.

 

[Tani Coyote]

You mean Królewiec

No, Konigsberg.

Perhaps that area should be a Russo-German-Polish condominium... but nobody seems to want to "share." And I know from a Polish friend how aggressive the Poles are about claiming that area. Or at least she is.

Edit: RRW, forgive me for the thread/Poland-jacking. I'll be sure to whip up a new map to atone for my sin later tonight.

 

[TheLastOne36]

Well duh. The point is that if you make a political marriage, then both sides think they were gaining something, and the Poles would not have done this for a stretch of useless woods. The Lithuanians had something.

Well of coarse we were gaining something, we were gaining land! Hmm double your empire and let these people in your empire, or just sit here and wait? I wonder what they would've picked back then.

If you think that Lithuania was the bigger brother in the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth, then that is simply wrong. That'd be like Wales controlling England.

 

[Bill3000]

If you think that Lithuania was the bigger brother in the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth, then that is simply wrong. That'd be like Wales controlling England.

They did. It's called the Tudor dynasty.

 

[North King]

Well of coarse we were gaining something, we were gaining land! Hmm double your empire and let these people in your empire, or just sit here and wait? I wonder what they would've picked back then.

Land is not universally a good thing. Land with value, sure, you want that. But just land to color yours on a map? It drains the treasury, manpower, and so on; it's not worth keeping half the time. The land they were gaining had something besides dirt and trees.

If you think that Lithuania was the bigger brother in the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth, then that is simply wrong. That'd be like Wales controlling England.

I think you're seriously overestimating the power of Poland back then.

 

[Tani Coyote]

And here, as promised, a new map.

Time period is pretty much ignored, I more or less skewed historical lines and made several things occur simultaneously.

Black is Großdeutschland, of course. In dark gray is Großpoland. Or Poland-Lithuania to be more precise. The Commonwealth and the Holy Roman Empire(since the Germany thing pretty much is a centralised HRE), have broken historical trends and declared themselves allies. This is most apparent in the marriage of the heirs of both empires to eachother. The grandchild of the current rulers of Poland-Lithuania and Germany, once they are born/come of age, will rule over all three kingdoms. Take that, Charles V.

In dark red, are vassal states of the "European Confederation", as it's sometimes called. First, the Hohenzollerns managed to defeat the Habsburgs, as historically, and have seized Silesia and most of Austria-proper. Most of the remaining Habsburg possessions have been re-branded the Kingdom of Hungary, centered on said area.

With that done, the alliance became extremely ambitious: they targeted the Ottoman Empire. Rallying the Venetian navy(and it's expertise in fighting the Ottoman dogs) to it's side, the alliance marched into the empire, eventually taking Istanbul. The Ottoman navy and much of it's army was destroyed, while the end result was Venice swallowing up nearly all Eastern Mediterranean islands and Greece proper, not to mention the whole Eastern Adriatic coast. The Commonwealth-German alliance grew in power by freeing most Balkan states, but making them so small that they couldn't rise up to defeat their northern overlords.

With Germany using Pan-Germanism and Poland-Lithuania using Pan-Slavism to further their claims, they grew in power. They moved against Russia as well, fulfilling Poland-Lithuania's request that the growing Muscovites be pushed back. The end result was the splintering of Russia into several states(with Moscow still large, but greatly reduced in power), most of which were vassalized to the alliance. Novgorod was reborn, serving as an ally of the great empire. When Germany invaded Denmark to further it's Pan-German schemes, Sweden joined in, taking most of Norway. They too, became allies with the Empire, nullifying chance of war with the north.

France naturally was a question. They were greatly PO'ed when the Germans annexed Alsace-Lorraine, which they had wanted just as badly. The savvy diplomats of the Commonwealth-HRE moved faster than French militarists, however, and managed to get France on the Emperor's good side. They hatched a plot to invade the Spanish Netherlands, and an enormous war ensued. Portugal and England joined in on Spain's side, wanting to preserve the balance of power, and more players gradually entered to make a continental war. But the Germans and Poles - with their French allies - managed to pull through. They captured Madrid and made the Spanish King abdicate, installing the French ruler on the throne instead, to rule the Kingdoms in personal union. Portugal fell easily afterwards, but it was left alone for the most part. England was convinced to stop the bloodshed.

With this massive conflict over, France now ruled Spain, while Spain also had to release Galicia so as to mitigate the French gains. Portugal and Britain were left out of the equation, though they both pledged to remain less-active in European affairs provided no wars between great powers occurred. The Venetians, having remained loyal to the Imperial forces despite the fact all Italy went against them, was given the chance to become the Kingdom of Italy. Claiming the title "Republic" instead, Venice became Italy, occupying much of the north, while sharing the southern parts with Spain in a condominium.

Hegemony by the Commonwealth and it's Imperial brethren ensued, naturally, narrowly kept in check by the Western powers' mutual distrust.

Those light green states in North Africa are the autonomous states of the Ottoman Empire; the Ottomans had to grant more and more autonomy to local rulers with the destruction of their navy(read: the link to the far-flung territories) and the humiliation that Ottoman "invincibility" suffered.

 

[TheLastOne36]

Land is not universally a good thing. Land with value, sure, you want that. But just land to color yours on a map? It drains the treasury, manpower, and so on; it's not worth keeping half the time. The land they were gaining had something besides dirt and trees.



I think you're seriously overestimating the power of Poland back then.

During the union, a <bunch> of Polish people were leaving the overcrowded Poland and settled in Lithuania, Belarus and Ukraine. What do you think we did with the land? Just leave it be one big forest?

I think your underestimating Poland's power. It was Poland's first golden age, We were the most powerful state in Europe at the time (or second, France is debatable)

They did. It's called the Tudor dynasty.

Bad example then...

It'd be like Breton controlling France.

Spoiler :

And here, as promised, a new map.

Time period is pretty much ignored, I more or less skewed historical lines and made several things occur simultaneously.

Black is Großdeutschland, of course. In dark gray is Großpoland. Or Poland-Lithuania to be more precise. The Commonwealth and the Holy Roman Empire(since the Germany thing pretty much is a centralised HRE), have broken historical trends and declared themselves allies. This is most apparent in the marriage of the heirs of both empires to eachother. The grandchild of the current rulers of Poland-Lithuania and Germany, once they are born/come of age, will rule over all three kingdoms. Take that, Charles V.

In dark red, are vassal states of the "European Confederation", as it's sometimes called. First, the Hohenzollerns managed to defeat the Habsburgs, as historically, and have seized Silesia and most of Austria-proper. Most of the remaining Habsburg possessions have been re-branded the Kingdom of Hungary, centered on said area.

With that done, the alliance became extremely ambitious: they targeted the Ottoman Empire. Rallying the Venetian navy(and it's expertise in fighting the Ottoman dogs) to it's side, the alliance marched into the empire, eventually taking Istanbul. The Ottoman navy and much of it's army was destroyed, while the end result was Venice swallowing up nearly all Eastern Mediterranean islands and Greece proper, not to mention the whole Eastern Adriatic coast. The Commonwealth-German alliance grew in power by freeing most Balkan states, but making them so small that they couldn't rise up to defeat their northern overlords.

With Germany using Pan-Germanism and Poland-Lithuania using Pan-Slavism to further their claims, they grew in power. They moved against Russia as well, fulfilling Poland-Lithuania's request that the growing Muscovites be pushed back. The end result was the splintering of Russia into several states(with Moscow still large, but greatly reduced in power), most of which were vassalized to the alliance. Novgorod was reborn, serving as an ally of the great empire. When Germany invaded Denmark to further it's Pan-German schemes, Sweden joined in, taking most of Norway. They too, became allies with the Empire, nullifying chance of war with the north.

France naturally was a question. They were greatly PO'ed when the Germans annexed Alsace-Lorraine, which they had wanted just as badly. The savvy diplomats of the Commonwealth-HRE moved faster than French militarists, however, and managed to get France on the Emperor's good side. They hatched a plot to invade the Spanish Netherlands, and an enormous war ensued. Portugal and England joined in on Spain's side, wanting to preserve the balance of power, and more players gradually entered to make a continental war. But the Germans and Poles - with their French allies - managed to pull through. They captured Madrid and made the Spanish King abdicate, installing the French ruler on the throne instead, to rule the Kingdoms in personal union. Portugal fell easily afterwards, but it was left alone for the most part. England was convinced to stop the bloodshed.

With this massive conflict over, France now ruled Spain, while Spain also had to release Galicia so as to mitigate the French gains. Portugal and Britain were left out of the equation, though they both pledged to remain less-active in European affairs provided no wars between great powers occurred. The Venetians, having remained loyal to the Imperial forces despite the fact all Italy went against them, was given the chance to become the Kingdom of Italy. Claiming the title "Republic" instead, Venice became Italy, occupying much of the north, while sharing the southern parts with Spain in a condominium.

Hegemony by the Commonwealth and it's Imperial brethren ensued, naturally, narrowly kept in check by the Western powers' mutual distrust.

Those light green states in North Africa are the autonomous states of the Ottoman Empire; the Ottomans had to grant more and more autonomy to local rulers with the destruction of their navy(read: the link to the far-flung territories) and the humiliation that Ottoman "invincibility" suffered.

I think we'd get Estonia, to expand our naval power.

 

[warpus]

Well duh. The point is that if you make a political marriage, then both sides think they were gaining something, and the Poles would not have done this for a stretch of useless woods. The Lithuanians had something.

There were border skirmishes on the Polish-Lithuanian border for decades before the countries united. What was gained on both sides was a unified front against the Teutonic knights (not to mention all the other regional rivals, like Muscovy, the Ottomans, Austria, Sweden, etc.)

It's hard to say which country "gained more", but both def. got a lot out of it. I mean, the end result was the end of the Teutonic Knights.

 

[Kraznaya]

During the union, Polish people were leaving the overcrowded Poland and settled in Lithuania, Belarus and Ukraine. What do you think we did with the land? Just leave it be one big forest?
.

Then they were kicked out good and properly later.

I think your underestimating Poland's power. It was Poland's first golden age, We were the most powerful state in Europe at the time (or second, France is debatable)

Don't hold your breath.

Bad example then...

It'd be like Breton controlling France.

I don't think Lithuania was one-twentieth of Poland's size at the time of union.

 

[warpus]

Lithuania was huge at the time of the union, but sparsely populated - Poland was smaller, but had a lot more important cultural/economic/educational/military centres.

 

[TheLastOne36]

Lithuania was huge at the time of the union, but sparsely populated - Poland was smaller, but had a lot more important cultural/economic/educational/military centres.

Not to mention population.

3:18 here, i have sleeping problems. Gonna pull of an american, and pop in some pills. Perhaps that'll work.

 

[Tani Coyote]

I think we'd get Estonia, to expand our naval power.

Hmm... good point. Since the German-Commonwealth Union's somehow acquired the many Baltic islands, it would make sense if Estonia was gobbled up too. Sweden's allied status could be explained by how they got most of Norway in exchange...

 

[warpus]

Not to mention population.

3:18 here, i have sleeping problems. Gonna pull of an american, and pop in some pills. Perhaps that'll work.

"Pull off an American" sounds kinda fruity

 

[Winner]

This is so funny - the bigger a nation is, the more expansionist it becomes. It's like an addiction or something. Poles often blame the Germans for their historical misfortunes, but they love to forget that whenever they had an opportunity, they did EXACTLY the same thing as the Germans (or Russians, an extreme case of landgrab addiction ).

My solution: break all big countries into same-size chunks, confederate them in EU-like organization and... expand together? Damn!