Alternate History Thread III

Another idea...
After WW1, the Communists promised a new Germany, a prospering one, much like the Nazis. The Nazis never rise. Communists begin a revolution in Germany. Germany become communist. Meanwhile, Japan doesn't invade China, but does invade Southeast Asia. Their reasoning: There is too much land and population, attrition from China will win. (Taken from Sun Tzu's Art of War) US and China condemn acts. Civil War is much worse, since no Japanese occupation. The communists also win here, but at a later date. (Say, mid-1950s?) Revolutions are in Africa, but less 'explosive' than OTL. The US navy sticks to old ideals, since there isn't WW2 and Pearl Harbor. Canada and Australia split, while New Zealand Being extremely loyal) doesn't. India has massive uprisings, but less so than OTL. They gain independence later, since no WW2.
 
Communists DID revolt in Germany. Ever heard of Rosa Luxemburg and the Spartacist League? What is different this time that they succeed?

also, why would the communist rebellion take LONGER in China? It would have been shorter if they hadnt had to devote resources to fighting the Japanese.
 
I'm not even going to try and correct that blatant statement about China, same with Japan's reasoning to not invade China. I mean, they already took Manchuria, Taiwan and had spheres of influence. They should just decide to stop advancing in China :p
 
Not referring to this scenario in general, but China and India SHOULD BE EC loaded. For much of history, China and India were as wealthy if not more so then Europe :p It's outrageous to me that in most cases Europe has more ECs then both India AND China combined :mischief:

Your right, but China has something like 3x Europe's total EC's. India has about double from my glance.

I didn't say it was wrong, just surprising. Interesting, very interesting.
 
Your right, but China has something like 3x Europe's total EC's. India has about double from my glance.

I didn't say it was wrong, just surprising. Interesting, very interesting.

Almost all of the EC's were placed by North King from his original 450 CE map. If I remember correctly, the only thing I did was add Jerusalem as a EC and remove one of the Bazrangid Empire's.

For the record:
Purple India State 12 ECs
Eastern Roman Empire 12 ECs
Southern China 9 ECs
Europe 9 ECs (3 in rebellious former Hun territory)
Northern China 5 ECs


Edit: I mispoke, I forgot I had decided to change Parthia (who I had pre-edit) to the Bazrangid Empire.

Edit2: For those who might be interested, here's the rough-draft nation list with corresponding map colors (yes I know I don't know my colors):
Spoiler :
Central America
Teotihuacán: Reddish Purple
Danipaguache: Blue Gray
Mutal: Leafy Green
Kaan: Dark Brown


South America
Moche: Tan
Warpa: Pink
Nazca: Red Brown
Tiwanaku: Sky Blue


Europe
Britannia: Crimson
Scirii: Light Blue
Suevi: Lt. Purple (Gaul)
Thervingi Lt. Orange
Franks: Green
Ostrogoths: Purple (Spain)
Alan: Aqua
Visigoths: Orange
Rome: Dark Brown
Lugii: Dark Purple (above Italy)
Huns: Dark Grey (3 way civil war plus myriad of rebellions)

“Eastern Roman Empire”
Pannonia: Lt. Aqua
Dalmatia: Dark Red
Moesia: Blue
Macedonia: Yellow
Epirus: Grey
Thrace: Blue-Green
Achaia: Purple
Bithynia: Drab Yellow
Asia: Neon Green
Galatia: Light Orange
Syria: Pink
Cyprus: Manila
Palestine: Purple
Egypt: Yellow
Cyrene: Brown
Armenia: Grey-brown
Mesopotamia: Bluish-grey


Africa
Sarmatia: Dark Orange
Axum: Dark Green
Jenne-Jeno: Golden Brown


Asia
Himyarite Kingdom: Sea Green Blue
Bazrangid Empire: Teal

Vakataka: Light Green
Kadambas: Light Red Brown Gray
Gangas: Orange
Pandyas: Sand Yellow
Cholas: Dark Blue
Sinhala: Lavender
Pallavas: Dark Yellow
Gupta Empire: Blue Purple

Sri Ksetra: Bright Green
Funan: Medium Blue
Champa: Dark Red Brown
Srivijaya: Dark Sea Blue

Song Empire: Golden
Toba Wei: Gray Brown
Koguryo: Brown
Silla: Light Orange
Paekche: Sea Green
Yamato: Dark Red


Edit3: And the map again so you don't have to switch pages to view both map and map key
Spoiler :
 
Here is the problem with doing TLs in installments, people don't necessarily know where you are going with something. The witch hunts, further down the line, are (probably) going to prove key to the religious schisms, in particular in the British Isles. Also, the reason I include this particular date is that these particular witch hunts are considered by academics in the area to be the starting point of the much wider European witch hunts that terrorised the continent and even spread as far as the famous Salem Witch Hunts.

I sincerely doubt the significance of those witch hunts to any religious schisms. The best they could do is stir up controversy, and maybe hamper scientific progress a bit.

I was thinking along those lines myself. I am not sure that the Metropolitan would relocate to Vilinus, as it is a Lithuanian city, but it is a very keen possibility. As you say Novgorod is a little too democratic for the Metropolitan's taste, but that could be ammended. I am also considering if the creation of a whole new city for the Metropolitan around OTL St. Petersburg (after it has fallen to the Novgorodian-Lithuanians, as it will) would be possible, or if he may end up relocating to a completely seperate city in the Commonwealth. And, of course, Kyiv is always a possibility.

Kiev or Polotsk (the latter being a Russian city of great importance for the Grand Dukes of Lithuania in OTL, something of an alternate political centre) seem likely. I really disagree about building a city at OTL St. Petersburg; it is a good place for a fortress, maybe even a fortress-monastery, but not for a Metropolitian's see. A new city itself might work, though technically the idea of building a "New Jerusalem" only appeared later in the 15th century (also I am not sure if there are any good spots).

This also brings us to the question of where would Lithuania-Novgorod's political capital would end up. If the unification of Russia proceeds as planned, Kiev, again, would be work very well from the propaganda viewpoint, but Polotsk would probably be the most convenient in administration due to its central location. Novgorod and Vilnius themselves seem a bit unlikely, though.

and to strengthen his army incredibly.

How exactly? By hiring mercenaries?

EDIT:

Ever heard of Rosa Luxemburg and the Spartacist League?

And of Thalmann, for that reason? He had all of Hitler's charisma, opportunism and ambition.

Anyhow:

After WW1, the Communists promised a new Germany, a prospering one, much like the Nazis. The Nazis never rise. Communists begin a revolution in Germany.

That much is mostly OTL.

Meanwhile, Japan doesn't invade China, but does invade Southeast Asia. Their reasoning: There is too much land and population, attrition from China will win. (Taken from Sun Tzu's Art of War)

a) What alex994 said;
b) They invaded to get all that much land and population in OTL;
c) By attacking Southeast Asia they would bring all the European colonial powers against them;
d) That would soon enough bring China, the USSR and the USA in against Japan as well, because this would be for many reasons an opportunity of a lifetime to eliminate a major opponent/destabilising factor and secure a stronger presence in Asia as a whole - basically the Japanese will have exposed themselves so much that no power could risk not attacking them.

Civil War is much worse, since no Japanese occupation. The communists also win here, but at a later date.

How would it be worse? Without the Sian Incident, the Nationalists would overrun the Communists with sheer numbers in due time, so at best the Communists would be able to retreat further and/or retreat to the underground.

Revolutions are in Africa, but less 'explosive' than OTL.

That's a... very odd statement. I am really not sure what are you trying to say here.

The US navy sticks to old ideals, since there isn't WW2 and Pearl Harbor.

See above, though I am guessing that you are talking about tactics.

Canada and Australia split, while New Zealand Being extremely loyal) doesn't.

Um, what?

India has massive uprisings, but less so than OTL. They gain independence later, since no WW2.

a) In OTL it didn't have anything that could be termed "massive uprisings" in this time period;
b) It is arguable that India might have gotten independence as a Dominion earlier if not for that annoying little distraction;
c) Err, why no WWII? There are so many things in Europe alone that may cause a new general conflict; even more than in OTL, and the same goes for Asia (which I had already discussed).
 
See above, though I am guessing that you are talking about tactics.
Why would they need to change those (directed at Swiss)? The US Navy already was a carrier navy before the War kicked off, and that was mainly a product of the experience in World War I and the advocacy of the Navy themselves. I can\'t see that America really changed their naval stripes after or during the Second World War - it was just the fact that we had more because of war production, that\'s all.
 
I need your help! Yes you! Three posts above this one is my rough draft map for the "Eternal Wait" alt-history. Since it is a rough draft, I would sincerly appreciate your feedback in the following areas:

1) Bazrangid Empire: A stronger Eastern Empire led to a sucessful attack against Parthia which caused an infusion of plunder, enriching the ERE and practically decimating Parthia, leading to the sucessful revolt of the Bazrangids. Now, keeping in mind that there is still a strong ERE, after taking over all of former Parthia would they turn east towards India (if towards India, how would this effect the Indian states), south towards Arabia, turn west towards ERE (which would be futile and only weaken the state), or stay as they are?

2) EC's: Is there somewhere I should have them or somewhere I should take them away (Ignoring Europe and ERE which were impacted the most by the PoD and thus will recieve my expert attention).

3) North Africa: Would a stronger ERE move to North Africa when barbarians invade in order to protect their grain supply? If barbarians do make a kingdom, should it be larger or smaller than the one shown?

4) Butterfly effects: There has been almost 500 years since the PoD. Should there be butterfly effects elsewhere, especially India, China, and Americas, or keep them as is?
 
@strategos, what is the name of the tannish-sandy civilization in South America? It's the only one you forget to mention. Oh, and which one is Suevi & Lugii.
 
after taking over all of former Parthia would they turn east towards India (if towards India, how would this effect the Indian states), south towards Arabia, turn west towards ERE (which would be futile and only weaken the state), or stay as they are?

The Gupta Empire is at the height of its power, and is extremely rich, has a large army with many war elephants and such unpleasant things. I doubt they could do much against India, they may attempt troublesome raids into fronteir territories which would provoke retaliation by the Guptas. They also have to conquer the people in Afganistan to get to the Gupta's seems too troublesome.

As for Arabia why would they go there? There's nothing in Arabia for them.

I think they would go down a path similar to Sassanaid Persia and attack the Eastern Roman Empire. It is closer than the rest, it has richer cities closer by also. I think they would more or less war back and forth like OTL Sassanid Persia and the Roman Empire.
 
@strategos, what is the name of the tannish-sandy civilization in South America? It's the only one you forget to mention. Oh, and which one is Suevi & Lugii.

S.A. civ is Moche. Suevi is the Gallic state, Ostrogoths the Spainish state and Lugii is the one north of Italy.

The Gupta Empire is at the height of its power, and is extremely rich, has a large army with many war elephants and such unpleasant things. I doubt they could do much against India, they may attempt troublesome raids into fronteir territories which would provoke retaliation by the Guptas. They also have to conquer the people in Afganistan to get to the Gupta's seems too troublesome.

As for Arabia why would they go there? There's nothing in Arabia for them.

I think they would go down a path similar to Sassanaid Persia and attack the Eastern Roman Empire. It is closer than the rest, it has richer cities closer by also. I think they would more or less war back and forth like OTL Sassanid Persia and the Roman Empire.

Makes sense, though the Bazrangids were more maratime oriented in OTL, so as they are penned in by two land powers, I might make them turn even more to the sea. I mentioned Arabia possibility because OTL Sassanaids had Arabian coastal territory which I took off on a whim, but which I will most likely put back on.
 
And little map of an old alt. history attempt of mine. The simple explanation is that Rome was stronger than OTL, and a powerful, Alexander-like emperor destroyed the Parthian Empire and extended Rome all the way to India. (My thinking is that this hypothetical emperor succeeds Marcus Aurelius instead of Commodus.) Shortly thereafter, the Roman Empire collapsed under the weight of its conquests. In the Greek regions, Christianity flourishes, and much of the population of the Hellenistic portions of the Empire convert during this exacerbated version of the Crisis of Third Century.

In the end, Rome is too large for one emperor to hold. Breakaway empires in Bactria, Persia and the Hellenistic world all become independent. Refocusing its attention on Italy and the West, the pagan empire is able to save itself. The Christian "Empire of the Hellenes", centered at Antioch, survives and becomes quite powerful, but faces constant battles along its northern frontier in Europe.

The Arabs convert to their own version of Christianity, which also becomes very popular in Egypt; Egypt eventually breaks away from the Empire of the Hellenes due to its Arianesque religious heresies. (Arab Christianity is highly reminiscent of Arianism.)

Smaller Persian states resurge and drive Roman Persia down to the coast, where it becomes more of a trader state than an empire, with Latin and Greek-speaking elites ruling over a Persian populace. The Latin-Bactrian Empire revives the traditions of the Greco-Bactrian Kingdom and is able to resist the incursions of the Guptas into their own territory.

In India and beyond, the world is mostly the same in 600 CE, with a few exceptions. The map only shows Rome's successor states: pagan Rome, orthodox Christian Hellene, Arab Christian Egypt, the Zoroastrian and pagan Republic of Hormuz, and the religiously diverse Latin-Bactrian Empire, plus outlines of the states whose borders have been significantly affected by the changes. (There is an Avar state south of the Danube and north of Greece.)

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How united is the "Eastern Roman Empire"?

At the date of the map, the Eastern Roman Empire is facing a potential turning point. Prior to this the Eastern Roman Empire was militarily centralized while politically localized. For quite some time, the Eastern Augusti had been generals and had by law confined themselves to being supreme general, leaving political power in the hands of local Caesars. However, just before the date of the map, the Huns had swept down, led by their king Oktar, smashing the Roman legions in battle, and assuming the title of Emperor of the East, eventually turning west, adding those provinces to the Empire before dying while planning an invasion of Romanized Britannia.

Now, the East has no Emperor. The three sons of Oktar all claim the throne of both the Huns and the Eastern Roman Empire. The throne of the East, however, could only be ascended by the vote of the Eastern Caesars, which, as of the date of the map, had not elected a successor. So there are three possible paths they may take.

1) They could immediately elect a (eastern) Roman general as Emperor, rebuild the eastern legions which had been decimated by the battle of Chersonesus (when they lost against the Huns) and Oktar’s later campaigns, and attempt to go back to the pre-Hun status quo

2) They could await the results of the successor war of the Huns, and appoint the victor as Emperor, and work on consolidating Hunnic territory into the Empire.

3) They could refuse to elect an Emperor at all (or just elect a puppet Emperor for formality purposes), and use the remnants of the eastern legions for each Caesar to raise his own personal army. At which point it could kind of be like the HRE at various points of its history, with official unity, but frequent wars between members.
 
As for Arabia why would they go there? There's nothing in Arabia for them.

What was in the East Indies for the Portuguese? Arabian incense was similar to Indian spice in that time. But I really doubt that Arabia would be a main direction in expansion; the key coastal ports, which are not many, are all that one really wants to control there. So, yes, westwards conquest seems to be the most likely option here.

That said, the Persians might try and build a colonial empire in addition to the land wars; to finance them, in fact. That would mean not just Arabia, but also East Africa (remember that the pre-Swahili city-states there back then had a serious presence of Shirazi Persian merchants and suchlike).

As for butterfly effect, I preffer to avoid it being significant nowadays; ripple effect can usually be more fun if you have the time. Still, some changes are bound to reach India and China by now; the key is in the steppe peoples, naturally. You could probably find all the stuff you need in Wikipedia, or just look on the map; a stronger ERE would make its neighbours somewhat weaker, so the neighbours of those neighbours would be stronger, and so forth. Then the effect might or might not be enough to affect the outcome of some significant contemporary events in India or China.
 
strategos, are you planning on modding this sometime soon?
 
I think he's planning to give it to silver2039.
 
Here's the map with some more work done on it. The four barbarian kingdoms of Europe are the Frankish kingdom in Gallia, the Vandal-Suevi kingdom in Hispania, the Gothic kingdom along the upper Danube, and the Avar kingdom in the upper Balkans. I don't have names for the two completed Persian princely states yet; each is ruled by a different house of former Persian nobility.

India is grey not because it's full of barbarians but because I haven't done any work there yet.

Thoughts?

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