An Honest Debate of Abortion

[Mark1031]

So by an honest discussion I mean I want people to analyze the true motivations behind their arguments. I argue that what is really behind the anti-abortion position for many people is the desire to punish people for being irresponsible enough to get pregnant when they don’t want to have a kid rather than a true concern for human life.

For example we have from some old threads-
State Sen. Dave Schultheis (R) [he is strongly pro-life] who did not want to have pregnant women tested for HIV so they could be treated to prevent transfer to the fetus:

"This stems from sexual promiscuity for the most part, and I just can't go there. ..."What I'm hoping is that yes, that person may have AIDS, have it seriously as a baby and when they grow up, but the mother will begin to feel guilt as a result of that. The family will see the negative consequences of that promiscuity and it may make a number of people over the coming years ... begin to realize that there are negative consequences and maybe they should adjust their behavior.”

http://www.rockymountainnews.com/new...y-cause-uproa/

Well for this guy he makes my point all in one statement. But let’s explore further from a previous CFC pro-lifer.

“Sex HAS consequences, the most obvious of which is pregnancy. By taking that consequence away with unfettered access to abortion for social reasons, the other problems (STDs, broken marriages, etc...) all increase in frequency.”

Now this could simply mean that he has a strong concern for the life of the zygote but also thinks that promiscuity is a negative. So let’s see what he says about helping support the children after they are born.

What is so unreasonable about expecting people to take care of themselves and their offspring, or penalizing them severely if they don't? When did total irresponsibility become an acceptable way of life? … if people won't be responsible for themselves, they should suffer all the consequences of their laziness, and if their offspring will be made to suffer for their laziness, they should have the ability to reproduce removed forcibly.
You DO have the duty to take care of yourself.
You DO have the duty to take care of your children.
You DO NOT have the right to an income, a house, or food, unless you are willing to go out and get a job (however good or crappy your acceptance of education qualified you for) to obtain them with.
No one on the face of the earth owes you a damn thing.

Or my favorite from another pro-lifer on how much of a tax increase he is willing to support to take care of all the unwanted children that would be born if Roe is overturned

I'd gladly die if it meant stopping abortion forever in America, but I'm not going to support taxing the American people over it.

So for many (not all-Michelle Bachman with 24 foster kids for eg.) the concern for life seems to begin at conception and end at birth and especially at their pocket book. If life is your main overriding concern then why is the pro-life movement not tied more closely to support for the really poor in other countries? Or is US life more important? You know 50 cents a day can save a life.

So for the pro-lifers some questions. What do you do to actually help living children in need? What would you pay to help support all the unwanted kids that would be born if abortion was illegal? Are you aware of the state of the US foster care system and are you equally outraged see here http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=129229&highlight=abortion.

Are you as concerned about this even if only to question or understand the position of the politicians you support on foster care funding and oversight?

Alternately is there any pro-lifer out there that agrees with the following statement "it is perfectly normal and natural for human beings to have sex multiple times with multiple partners in whatever manner they see fit throughout their adult life and offer no judgment of women or men that do so "

 

[bestrfcplayer]

The thing about ending abortion in America is simply foolish. Even though I am Catholic and am against abortion, the tricky thing about ending abortion in America is that if abortion was made illegal in the US, that would go against the Constitution, since it is the women's choice on whether or not to end the life of their baby. But, I am going to say that the rate of abortions can be brought down if we education women on topics such as sex before marriage and what the cost of having a baby before being married.

Now on to why I am against abortion. I am a Roman Catholic, and as a Catholic, I believe that abortion is morally wrong because it is killing a human life. The Catholic Church (I'm not sure if the other Christian denominations believe this as well) believes that life starts at conception and killing a baby in the embryonic stage is destroying a living being (living being defined as a human being whom has a soul (which has been present since birth). So, that is a brief statement as to why I am against abortion.

 

[Patroklos]

You start a thread about honest discussion by presenting lies about the other side you have failed to support miserably in multiple threads this very day.

An honest discussion is not what you are after.

 

[Save_Ferris]

The thing about ending abortion in America is simply foolish. Even though I am Catholic and am against abortion, the tricky thing about ending abortion in America is that if abortion was made illegal in the US, that would go against the Constitution, since it is the women's choice on whether or not to end the life of their baby. But, I am going to say that the rate of abortions can be brought down if we education women on topics such as sex before marriage and what the cost of having a baby before being married.

Now on to why I am against abortion. I am a Roman Catholic, and as a Catholic, I believe that abortion is morally wrong because it is killing a human life. The Catholic Church (I'm not sure if the other Christian denominations believe this as well) believes that life starts at conception and killing a baby in the embryonic stage is destroying a living being (living being defined as a human being whom has a soul (which has been present since birth). So, that is a brief statement as to why I am against abortion.

What he said.

 

[mangxema]

Are you sure you don't want to red-diamond this?

 

[Patroklos]

I don't think giant strawmen qualify.

 

[caketastydelish]

I once made a thread with a poll a few years ago on this site titled "How do you feel about abortion?"

poll options were:

1. I'm anti life because I hate babies
2. I'm anti choice because I hate women

The thread was locked by a mod.

As to how I really feel about it? I generally don't like it however sometimes its the best choice in a list of bad options.

 

[Mark1031]

Well I don’t think anyone likes abortion. Women who have them certainly don’t. From my POV I have absolutely no problem with early abortions. I simply can’t be concerned about a single cell or embryo at the stage when most abortions are performed. I favor its availability because I want people to be able to have sex and not have to face the consequences of raising a child if an accident happens. As for hypocrisy or willful ignorance on my side of the argument I prefer not to think too much about later term abortions. These are much more rare and usually done because genetic testing cannot be done until somewhat later and are usually to abort a genetically abnormal fetus. I have 3 kids and we had the test on all of them and would have aborted for Downs. Now Downs is a highly variable phenotype and those kids can lead a perfectly happy life. So it is certainly self-serving to not think too much about abortion at that stage and focus all your arguments on the early stages

 

[Valka D'Ur]

The thing about ending abortion in America is simply foolish. Even though I am Catholic and am against abortion, the tricky thing about ending abortion in America is that if abortion was made illegal in the US, that would go against the Constitution, since it is the women's choice on whether or not to end the life of their baby. But, I am going to say that the rate of abortions can be brought down if we education women on topics such as sex before marriage and what the cost of having a baby before being married.

Why don't you say that the men should be educated as well?

I have posted my views on abortion on other occasions in OT threads. In short, I feel it's a decision between a woman, her conscience, and her doctor. Everybody else should mind their own business.

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

So by an honest discussion I mean I want people to analyze the true motivations behind their arguments.

Now that would be a great discussion. I wonder why you followed that up by discussing other people's motivations.

 

[useless]

Not sure how the op is full of "lies".

Maybe you could tell us, pat?

 

[Leoreth]

An honest statement would be to say that pro-lifers are anti-choice, but pro-choicers are not anti-life.

 

[Camikaze]

Moderator Action: Thread closed for review.

 

[Camikaze]

Moderator Action: Reopened after review. Please make sure you're not questioning the motives and integrity of each other, but of public figures. This means that you shouldn't make broad generalisations about either side of the debate, but rather qualify your statements so they aren't actually attacking anyone in this thread or at CFC.

 

[emzie]

It's never seemed that complicated to me, if you think a fetus is a person, then you will probably consider abortion murder. I really can't argue with that stance, as personhood has less to do with scientific absolutes than it does philosophy. So I don't think there's an empirically correct answer.

If you're going to have an honest conversation about abortion, I think you have to be clear that the other side has a logically consistent position as well.

 

[rugbyLEAGUEfan]

It's never seemed that complicated to me, if you think a fetus is a person, then you will probably consider abortion murder. I really can't argue with that stance, as personhood has less to do with scientific absolutes than it does philosophy. So I don't think there's an empirically correct answer.

If you're going to have an honest conversation about abortion, I think you have to be clear that the other side has a logically consistent position as well.

This should be stickied at the top of all abortion threads

 

[IdiotsOpposite]

Honestly, I don't know how I feel about abortion. On the one hand, it seems wrong to allow people to just scoot away from their punishment like that (and yes, I do see children as a punishment. Yes, I know that makes me a heartless bastard. Yes, I don't care), but on the other hand, denying that choice to all women in America, and potentially causing a multitude of dangerous back-alley abortions also seems very wrong. I'm quite torn.

 

[LucyDuke]

I kind of changed my mind relatively recently.

I'm sympathetic to those that want to decrease the number of abortions performed. I do too, because they're not really good for women.

I don't think that fighting womens' legal rights to have abortions is the most effective (or humane, but that's beside this point) way to do that. I don't trust the motives of someone that says they want fewer abortions and also objects to the promotion of contraception or financial assistance to pregnant women without means to care for babies.

I don't think screaming about anything is going to convince anyone of anything or accomplish anything worth accomplishing.

 

[El_Machinae]

How is that a change of mind?

 

[bathsheba666]

The 1% likes to condition the slave class to do as they are told, by keeping women subservient, and having an excess of workers to help them drive down wages.
The organised, and unorganised, religions have a significant overlap with this.

I am aware both groups can construct meaningful rationalisations for disallowing abortions that make no mention of the above criteria.

However, in its own small way, allowing abortion thwarts both those goals, and is one in the eye to both those groups, purely inasmuch as it denies their power.
It follows, I care not for the arguments that these groups put, nor criteria that they adopt for evaluating the worth or morality of abortion.
I am happy to ignore them, in pursuit of the above goals.