AND SVN Build Thread
- Thread starter 45°38'N-13°47'E
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Afforess
The White Wizard
Obsolescence isn't permanent if the game files are changed? That's a new one on me.
Keep up the good work, I suppose!
The game considers the building to still be in your city even after it is obsolete, just the effects are removed. You can even toggle to show obsolete buildings in your cities in the BUG options.
The control-shift-t calculation recalculates all effects, so it would un-obsolete it as it were.
JosEPh_II
TBS WarLord
Really!?? You would do this on 1 players complaint? Do you really like AND as dry as a bone in the early game Afforess?
Just like your comments in April 2013 over my Civic suggestions you disparage me again. Is your dislike for me so great? Was the JC ruining AND??
As I removed those Civic suggestions I now remove myself from your mod. One less opinion to badger you.
I hereby resign from AND Resurrection Team.
Be Blessed
JosEPh
Afforess
The White Wizard
Really!?? You would do this on 1 players complaint? Do you really like AND as dry as a bone in the early game Afforess?
Just like your comments in April 2013 over my Civic suggestions you disparage me again. Is your dislike for me so great? Was the JC ruining AND??
As I removed those Civic suggestions I now remove myself from your mod. One less opinion to badger you.
I hereby resign from AND Resurrection Team.
Be Blessed
JosEPh
If you can't express your opinions without erupting in anger and refuse to act like an adult, then you don't really belong here. I'm sorry you have decided you can't participate like everyone else here has. I respect your opinion greatly, but your reaction indicates you have no respect for mine. I am sad your first reaction was to quit rather than discuss the changes, but if you refuse to participate then I can't force you to continue.
If you decide you wish to take back your resignation and apologize for that response, we will gladly welcome you back.
Rezca
The Greatest Jaggi
Well... Logged in to check up on latest developments and now I feel absolutely terrible 
So unfortunate to see this arguing...
So unfortunate to see this arguing...
darkedone02
The Suggestor
...this is so trivial to see one person whine about graveyard change... seriously!? grow up people...
Moreover, this is just balance. This is an attempt and could be reversed, no need to angry.
darkedone02
The Suggestor
I'm not angry at all, matter and fact, every patch seems to be good so far, anything to balance, add in more Quality of Life changes and performance increases is a thumps up for me.
45°38'N-13°47'E
Deity
Joseph, I've talked to afforess yesterday and we both agreed to nerf some feature a bit. Specifically, farms are too powerful and jungle camps which are already powerful would become even more powerful in comparison with farms. While jungle camps were very good when you first introduced them, they're not so anymore with all changes that we've done in two years. I'm sorry to read your reaction, but actually I'm more sorry because you think this has something to do with every proposal you make. It's not like that and it's not Afforess' decision but something I've discussed with him for gameplay and balancing reasons.
Sorry, that was a misunderstood. I've quoted your answer to Joseph, but my answer was for him
Combat Wombat
Warlord
Good god at least don't treat me like I am a moron... Heavy Pikemen are 9 strength the 13.5 was including the 50% for simplicity's sake. It's obvious by that comment that you haven't really looked at what I am talking about and are just disagreeing to disagree.
The specialized unit should have the advantage not be severely crippled for 30+ turns compared to its foe.
I kinda agree. Last time I played elphants were ownage. Unless my pikes were on a hill or something they tended to get raped. Just a modest buff would be nice, like 10 strength. Could you make it so that they fight at a disadvatange vs melee? If your worried they'd be too powerful vs other unit types, boosting there strength but giving them a disadvantage vs other units could be a way around this. You could also boost the cost to help balance too, but as they stand I think they kinda suck.
stolenrays
Deity
- Joined
- Aug 2, 2009
- Messages
- 2,063
Afforress, did you ever finish listing the KMODs changes?
Afforess
The White Wizard
Not sure. I think I grabbed the major ones, but it was a while ago so I don't recall perfectly.
Well, since I'm the one responsible for the Elephant units, I'm going to state exactly why they are at the strength they are and why I'm not going to change them.
One thing that I do want to do, and I've mentioned this once before, is to kick down the requirements for Formation/Charge/Ambush promotions from requiring Combat or Drill II to just Combat or Drill I. This would allow getting anti-mounted Arquebusiers faster.
- Elephants need to be strong because that is really the only thing they are capable of. Elephants cannot move speed 2 (like horse cavalry), get defensive bonuses (for mounted units, that's restricted to the mobile defense line), or bombard city defenses, so that leaves attack strength as the one thing they need to have, or there is no point in building them at all.
- Likewise, Elephants need to have a good strength to stay relevant throughout their lifespan. I originally had Elephant Bombardiers at Strength 20 so they would have a chance against Musketmen. I was convinced that was too strong and lowered them to 16.
- Pikes are the wrong counter unit for the Elephant Bombardier, and in fact for any gunpowder cavalry. I think tech diffusion is doing an excellent job of keeping tech equalized across all players, so by the time some players get Gunpowder, it spreads to everyone, and Matchlock is only one tech away (the other prerequisite for Matchlock is Clockworks, which is a Medieval Era tech and pretty cheap by the Renaissance).
- I don't think it is necessarily a bad thing to occasionally have the pendulum swing back and forth between attack and defense. The early eras have it very hard to rush another player; my usual early wars start once I get Siege Warfare and Smithing and can build/upgrade Swordsmen and Catapults. Then the pendulum swings back to defense once the AIs get Feudalism and Longbows, swinging back to attack again once I get Armor Crafting and Heavy Swordsmen, but not nearly as far.
- Also, I think that having some "sticks" to occasionally prod the player towards military techs is a good thing as well. It's hard to weave some of the techs on the tree together as tightly as I would like without being heavy-handed about it, so it doesn't bother me to give players some reason to stay equalized across the columns instead of beelining down a row.
One thing that I do want to do, and I've mentioned this once before, is to kick down the requirements for Formation/Charge/Ambush promotions from requiring Combat or Drill II to just Combat or Drill I. This would allow getting anti-mounted Arquebusiers faster.
IPEX-731BA5DD06
Deity
Also, if I may butt in, Elephants, were the middle/early ages Tanks of the Age. They would trample a line of Pikes/spears. Nothing, and I mean Nothing, could go 'Toe to Toe' with them.
To defeat them, you had to use strategy, such as Scipio Africanous did V's Hannibal in the Siege of Carthage.
Vokarya, gave a detailed and logical explanation, I've just delved into reality, which this game ISN'T.
I have more off a problem with light tanks moving 3/4 and heavy/modern tanks moving 1/2. I strongly feel, it should be the reverse, but its ONLY A GAME.
P.S. I self modified the Armourers, cannon forges and the other to provide double the production, for double the cost, which I believe is balanced, and makes it worth building.
If you don't like a 'Particular' change/rule/setting, self Modify it yourself and smugly sit back and say "See, I was right".
My 10 Cents, spend wisely.
To defeat them, you had to use strategy, such as Scipio Africanous did V's Hannibal in the Siege of Carthage.
Vokarya, gave a detailed and logical explanation, I've just delved into reality, which this game ISN'T.
I have more off a problem with light tanks moving 3/4 and heavy/modern tanks moving 1/2. I strongly feel, it should be the reverse, but its ONLY A GAME.
P.S. I self modified the Armourers, cannon forges and the other to provide double the production, for double the cost, which I believe is balanced, and makes it worth building.
If you don't like a 'Particular' change/rule/setting, self Modify it yourself and smugly sit back and say "See, I was right".
My 10 Cents, spend wisely.
<Nexus>
Traveler of the Multiverse
Yes, elephants need to be strong, for game-play and reality reasons both.
Pikemen were a good counter against charging cavalry: "Grab your pike and try to hit the horseman before he hits you!"
But elephants are different. They are much slower than horses, but also much stronger. They are like mobile fortresses. I guess the best counter unit against elephants were not the pikeman type units, but ranged units: Shoot off the rider from the elephant.
Reducing their strength is really no good idea, but I think they could be "weakened" in some way:
Introduce a new unit category: Elephants which
-don't get Xp from Stables and Knight's Stables (but give them their own "stable") - after all riding a horse or riding an elephant is not the same.
-they would get no penalty against pikeman type units, but against ranged and gunpowder ones. The bonus could be huge.
What do you think?
Pikemen were a good counter against charging cavalry: "Grab your pike and try to hit the horseman before he hits you!"
But elephants are different. They are much slower than horses, but also much stronger. They are like mobile fortresses. I guess the best counter unit against elephants were not the pikeman type units, but ranged units: Shoot off the rider from the elephant.
Reducing their strength is really no good idea, but I think they could be "weakened" in some way:
Introduce a new unit category: Elephants which
-don't get Xp from Stables and Knight's Stables (but give them their own "stable") - after all riding a horse or riding an elephant is not the same.
-they would get no penalty against pikeman type units, but against ranged and gunpowder ones. The bonus could be huge.
What do you think?
Rezca
The Greatest Jaggi
I think there's plenty of unit categories as it is, so for the time being I think it'd just be better to approach elephant units more cautiously (or bring larger numbers of units to combat them) - as painful as that may sound.
Realism Invictus required you to build a Large Stable before you could build elephant units in a city, and IIRC that city needed a Stable already as well as access to Ivory. If it had neither, you could only build horse units. The Large Stable was also painfully slow to build, but Elephants were truly nasty units in RI so that was an acceptable trade-off.
<Nexus>
Traveler of the Multiverse
That may be a solution also. Just keep in mind: One may have access to ivory while not to horses. Large Stable requiring Stables also would mean that you need elephants and horses both, to build elephant units
Rezca
The Greatest Jaggi
That may be a solution also. Just keep in mind: One may have access to ivory while not to horses. Large Stable requiring Stables also would mean that you need elephants and horses both, to build elephant units
I'm not sure if Stables were really a requirement or not, it's been a while since I've played RI
I remember though that it took a while for elephants to see empire-wide usage.
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