Another First World Muslim Joins ISIS

[Borachio]

I think it's a terrible use of their time and assets. They'll likely get themselves killed for no good reason.

 

[Quackers]

Only on your terms. In reality they may succeed and create their new state in the ME. They may be the warrior-politicians of a new country. All to lose but a lot to gain.

 

[Sanguivorant]

If these guys become rich capitalists, they could probably do much more for the Ummah than fighting with weapons. That is, if they still believe in the cause and use all of their wealth to improve the Middle East, improve literacy (So that people can read the Qur'an, lol), make jobs, and buy the oil companies peacefully to take them out of the control of corporations.

And then, once Muslims in the Middle East have some sort of education, combined with an average quality of life, the revolution will occur on its own, and those countries will eventually form unions and perhaps even federations peacefully.

Islam can no longer be maintained by the sword. A cultural, economical and societal jihad must occur, in which Muslims fight poverty, backwardness and injustice through means that will not designate them as terrorists.

 

[Borachio]

Only on your terms. In reality they may succeed and create their new state in the ME. They may be the warrior-politicians of a new country. All to lose but a lot to gain.

Maybe. But most of them, especially the youngest ones, will simply perish.

A very, very small number may capitalize on the experience.

The remainder will come back to the UK and cause havoc until they're arrested and jailed.

 

[Quackers]

Maybe. But most of them, especially the youngest ones, will simply perish.

A very, very small number may capitalize on the experience.

The remainder will come back to the UK and cause havoc until they're arrested and jailed.

If I recall, the Home Office has some exceptional power where they can remove your citizenship. This has already been used a few times for British fighters in the Syrian conflict.

 

[Traitorfish]

I think it's a terrible use of their time and assets. They'll likely get themselves killed for no good reason.

It's still not clear to me how this is different from joining the army.

Now I really am being facetious. But the question remains, why should we regard their behaviour as any more puzzling than a person who joins the army? It's not self-evident.

 

[Formaldehyde]

I doubt the Home Office would cancel their citizenship as a result, no matter what atrocities they personally committed.

 

[kramerfan86]

It's still not clear to me how this is different from joining the army.

Now I really am being facetious. But the question remains, why should we regard their behaviour as any more puzzling than a person who joins the army? It's not self-evident.

I suppose the difference would be when joining your own country's army you are theoretically signing up to defend your family, nation, and way off life whereas going off and joining someone else's army or rebellion removes those three primary benefits.

 

[Harv]

This definitely isn't the first occurrence.

[/quote]
There are many Muslims like him who are in their early 20s, come from somewhat affluent families, have or are currently in post-secondary education and look like they have a bright future ahead of them.[/quote]

I have not yet read the article. Did he have an engineering degree?

At the same time, the city of Calgary is one of the most beautiful cities in the world, full of trees and whatnot. At least it is in my eyes, since I have never seen such greenery back in my home country. And this guy goes into the desert to fight for a cause that could easily be halted by Western intervention.

I thought Calgary was a desert. Ranch country and oil country.

If that doesn't make things worse, he even burns his own Canadian passport. I know many people that would give their right arm to become a Canadian citizen, and this guy is perfectly fine with getting rid of that privilege.

You can move to Canada and escape all this!

So I guess the question here is: What motivates these people to leave countries that not only promote liberalism, but guarantee a high quality of life?

I thought Canada was much better than the USA at celebrating, embracing, and assimilating other cultures than the USA. I still think it is, but my understanding is quite a few years out of date. I will chalk this one up to the mind-controlling effects of belonging to a cult. Maybe he needed more Canadian beer-drinking buddies.

 

[Traitorfish]

I suppose the difference would be when joining your own country's army you are theoretically signing up to defend your family, nation, and way off life whereas going off and joining someone else's army or rebellion removes those three primary benefits.

Presumably these young men don't regard Canada as their nation or Canadian liberalism as their way of life, and who are we to tell them that they are mistaken?

You're right that they aren't defending their families, but, then, are those who join the Canadian Army? Is Canada at serious risk of being invaded by the Taliban? Which further brings the "nation and way of life" explanation into question. So whatever it is that fundamentally distinguishes the one from the other is still unclear.

 

[Terxpahseyton]

It is said that people like to be part of something "larger than themselves". A cryptic expression, I attribute this cryptism to our individualism.
Because a less cryptic expression of the same thing is surprisingly straight-forward: People like to be part of a group bound together by something. Going all the way back to tribal relations allowing individuals to survive and procreate.
A broad social development which I will try to summarize with the term Individualism has eroded such bounds. Not destroyed. Bounded groups will continue to exist until the end of time from what I can tell. But eroded - as in - extraordinarily many people feel like they do not belong to such a group. Ideology promises an escape from such positions.
In this case manifested by ISIS.
Of course to renounce your society that drastically requires further circumstances. But that is the gist of it. Nothing unusual about it from what I can see. Special yes, not unusual.

 

[NovaKart]

Living an affluent life in a first world country is of course, comfortable, but it can also be very boring. Young people in modern first world countries have so many opportunities, which is great, but it can lead to not really having much direction in life. I agree with what other people have posted, that people who give up the 1st world lifestyle are often looking for meaning in life.

However, I can't really understand the motivation to join a violent organization. I could think of reasons why people do so but it's not something I can personally relate to. I think there's got to be that voice in your head that says, "This is wrong." That's how I would feel anyway.

Contrarywise, there are a lot of people who have done this. Americans in the 60s and 70s joined radical leftist and Marxist groups. Some tried to defect to the Soviet Union. This person mentioned in the article comes from a Somali immigrant family so there's that factor as well. Maybe he didn't adjust well to Canadian society or he felt a need to authenticate himself through a radical interpretation of his Muslim background.

I think the difference with joining the military is that joining the military is something legally and culturally approved of in most places. Joining a terrorist organization is usually not, even among most Muslims.

 

[warpus]

It's still not clear to me how this is different from joining the army.

Now I really am being facetious. But the question remains, why should we regard their behaviour as any more puzzling than a person who joins the army? It's not self-evident.

If you join the army you get healthcare and other fancy entitlements, I think.

 

[Sanguivorant]

Yeah. Some join the military for benefits in a country like Canada, where you are paid for your university if you serve afterwards.

I mean it's not like ISIS will give scholarships to their fighters or something.

 

[Formaldehyde]

Name a single terrorist organization which provides college tuition, a housing allowance, and free substandard medical coverage with lengthy wait times for the rest of your life.

 

[illram]

To me it's the same issue as: why did this white well to do 20 something turn to a life of drugs and alcohol and violent crime? why did this seemingly innocent young man join this gang? why did this woman with her whole life ahead of her from an upper class background drop out of college and become a transient living on the streets?

It happens. Young muslim men with some other pre-existing thing going on, like loneliness or depression or a bad family life or some personal tragedy unfortunately may connect and find meaning with the very accessible online Islamic fanatic community. Just like young christian men might also turn into monsters. These groups pretend to offer an avenue for young disaffected or disillusioned people to do something romantic and big in their lives. They are predators, really.

 

[Sanguivorant]

That's my point. No terror organization comes even close in offering benefits when compared to first world countries.

Even if you join the Canadian army, chances of death are low. More Canadians died from suicide than actual combat in Afghanistan.

 

[Formaldehyde]

... They are predators, really.

But is it really any different than the predators who roam our public schools and universities searching for disaffected and disillusioned people to serve as cannon fodder for the next absurd war?

Even if you join the Canadian army, chances of death are low. More Canadians died from suicide than actual combat in Afghanistan.

They were also typically deployed to the safest areas, as they were in Iraq. The US military commanders didn't want to risk having them be recalled due to casualties because it would have been a PR nightmare.

 

[Borachio]

It's still not clear to me how this is different from joining the army.

Now I really am being facetious. But the question remains, why should we regard their behaviour as any more puzzling than a person who joins the army? It's not self-evident.

I don't think you're being facetious at all. (Though you may well think so.)

I don't see any difference. In both cases, young men are signing up to an unlimited contract (unlimited in the sense that there's a real chance they'll be killed), without much sense of why they're doing it. The jihadists, indeed, may have a clearer idea of what they're doing. Which isn't to say their thinking isn't muddled, of course. Just relatively clearer.

 

[illram]

But is it really any different than the predators who roam our public schools and universities searching for disaffected and disillusioned people to serve as cannon fodder for the next absurd war?

Well, I guess to me the main difference is the United States Army enacts the military goals of an elected secular government and swears loyalty to a legal document that is mostly full of good secular ideas, like, free speech, freedom of religion, equal protection under the law, and at least attempts to have rules preventing war crimes and crimes against humanity like indiscriminately killing civilians, torture, murdering POW's, and so on. Notwithstanding all of the horrible things that the US Army has actually done in spite of those rules.

To me there is a scale of "badness," and ISIS is way farther down the scale than the US Army. ISIS and groups like it are hovering in "objectively evil" territory.