Another verdict on waterboading: it's torture.

[nonconformist]

when your first girlfriend left you, did you feel pain?

No, she did if you get my meaning hur hur

 

[MobBoss]

when your first girlfriend left you, did you feel pain?

No...now you are confusing a sense of sadness or loss with a sense of fear.

Still not the same thing and you are still wiggling pathetically.

 

[MobBoss]

Ya, the Geheime Staat Polizei and KGB are such nice guys for only causin g intense fear instead of pain prior to murdering their victims.

No, she did if you get my meaning hur hur

Seriously...are you posting while drunk today?

 

[nonconformist]

Afraid not, but the first was a valid point.

The US is using techniques very similar to "interrogation" techniques used by the KGB, Gestapo, Stasi, Securitate etc.

Doesn't that bother you?

 

[Grisu]

I googled a few definitions for the word torture:

"the deliberate, systematic, or wanton infliction of physical or mental suffering by one or more persons in an attempt to force another person to yield information or to make a confession or for any other reason; "it required unnatural torturing to extract a confession"

Torture, according to the United Nations Convention Against Torture, is "any act by which severe pain or suffering, whether physical or mental, is intentionally inflicted on a person for such purposes as obtaining from<snip>

An act by which severe pain or suffering, whether physical or mental, is intentionally inflicted on a person, for a purpose such as obtaining ...

is any act by which severe torment, whether physical or psychological, is intentionally inflicted on a person as a means of intimidation ...

severe, psychological and/or physical pain or discomfort deliberately and forcibly inflicted on, or created within, the mind and/or body of ...

I cannot see how using these definitions waterboarding is NOT torture...

Furthermore to those claiming it's just scaring/inflicting fear. If that were true and fear of death was enough, why use waterboarding at all and not just point a gun at them and tell them you'll shoot them if they don't tell their secrets...the only reason I can see for this is because fear alone is not enough to bring people to spill their secrets....

 

[lovett]

When something makes me go 'ow'. Not when something makes me crap my pants in fear.

So your definition of pain is subjective, more or less. That's alright. Actually one of the most widely used definitions is completely subjective. I.e "'Pain is whatever the experiencing person says it is, existing whenever he says it does".

The problem it leaves you with is that a significant number of people consider waterboarding painful. A tricky one, that.

 

[IglooDame]

I never said torture had to be dangerous, that was brennans given definition.

Ah, so it doesn't have to be dangerous, got it.

This I would disagree with. I could see where shoving bamboo under your fingernails could indeed result in premanent scarring, just like hitting your finger hard enough with a hammer could result in having your finger amputated.

I didn't say that it wouldn't result in "permanent scarring" I was noting that the permanent scarring was virtually insignificant. White vertical lines on the tortured person's fingernails. Woo. It's not exactly setting the bar very high, wouldn't you say? Physiological effect doesn't correlate with scarring well enough to matter for a legal definition.

So, now childbirth is torture?

I didn't say that (I was simply noting that childbirth pain was greater than slivers-under-fingernails pain), but by your definition, apparently it does. But that begs another question - is rape (not as a "civilian" violent crime, but as applied to POWs until they sign confessions of war crimes) considered torture?

I find it comical what dictionary-revisionist lengths people will go to in order to keep the US from being guilty of violating international standards in this regard (while still keeping what was done to US prisoners in the Hanoi Hilton as verboten), it is positively Clintonesque in it's transparency.

Of course, we all know what the Bush Administration should have done in the first place - "It is the policy of the United States to refuse to use physiologically compelling techniques to elicit information from detainees". Of course, you, I, or most anyone would have used torture on Kalid Sheikh Muhammed. If it was me, I would have done so in a heartbeat, and then dealt with the resulting legal routine exactly as if I'd killed someone that had murdered my wife. Such is life. It's not KSM that most of us are on about, it's the Bush Administration officially sanctioning it.

 

[Verbose]

I googled a few definitions for the word torture:

Quote:
Originally Posted by wordnet.princeton.edu
"the deliberate, systematic, or wanton infliction of physical or mental suffering by one or more persons in an attempt to force another person to yield information or to make a confession or for any other reason; "it required unnatural torturing to extract a confession"

Quote:
Originally Posted by wiki
Torture, according to the United Nations Convention Against Torture, is "any act by which severe pain or suffering, whether physical or mental, is intentionally inflicted on a person for such purposes as obtaining from<snip>

Quote:
Originally Posted by www.medicinenet.com
An act by which severe pain or suffering, whether physical or mental, is intentionally inflicted on a person, for a purpose such as obtaining ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nationmaster.com
is any act by which severe torment, whether physical or psychological, is intentionally inflicted on a person as a means of intimidation ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by naffoundations.com
severe, psychological and/or physical pain or discomfort deliberately and forcibly inflicted on, or created within, the mind and/or body of ...

I cannot see how using these definitions waterboarding is NOT torture...

Furthermore to those claiming it's just scaring/inflicting fear. If that were true and fear of death was enough, why use waterboarding at all and not just point a gun at them and tell them you'll shoot them if they don't tell their secrets...the only reason I can see for this is because fear alone is not enough to bring people to spill their secrets....

But taking a page from the book of the Spanish Inquisition, you know, its very, very important to first show the... subject... the implements you intend to use, and pedagogocally explain what you will do to him, to what effect.

And then you leave your... subject... alone for a while, to give him time to mull these things over. It works marvels for his experience of the ordeal, as compared to just starting to lopp off bits and pieces with no prior preparation like this. The best thing is apparently to show a future subject how it works by allowing him to sit in while you work on your current project.

So yes, fear, the instillation of, through mind games, is very important in efficient torture.

 

[MobBoss]

I cannot see how using these definitions waterboarding is NOT torture...

Furthermore to those claiming it's just scaring/inflicting fear. If that were true and fear of death was enough, why use waterboarding at all and not just point a gun at them and tell them you'll shoot them if they don't tell their secrets...the only reason I can see for this is because fear alone is not enough to bring people to spill their secrets....

Because pointing a gun at someone doesnt illicit an instintual response like the fear of drowning does. The point being someone can control their fear of being shot with a gun. They cant control their fear of drowning.

Thats what makes it so effective.

 

[MobBoss]

Ah, so it doesn't have to be dangerous, got it.

I didnt say that so please dont put words in my mouth. I dont think 'dangerous' is an appropriate description. I would say torture can be life threatening, but doesnt necessarily have to be.

I didn't say that it wouldn't result in "permanent scarring" I was noting that the permanent scarring was virtually insignificant. White vertical lines on the tortured person's fingernails. Woo.

I am also willing to bet it could incur possible and permanent nerve damage to their hands, and/or cause continued finger pain even after the wounds have healed.

I didn't say that (I was simply noting that childbirth pain was greater than slivers-under-fingernails pain),

As a man how do you know? From my wifes description of child birth, she said that the pain of giving birth is different than other pain she has experienced, but not necessarily greater.

but by your definition, apparently it does. But that begs another question - is rape (not as a "civilian" violent crime, but as applied to POWs until they sign confessions of war crimes) considered torture?

I would say its a war crime and probably torture in that aspect, yes.

Of course, we all know what the Bush Administration should have done in the first place - "It is the policy of the United States to refuse to use physiologically compelling techniques to elicit information from detainees". Of course, you, I, or most anyone would have used torture on Kalid Sheikh Muhammed. If it was me, I would have done so in a heartbeat, and then dealt with the resulting legal routine exactly as if I'd killed someone that had murdered my wife. Such is life. It's not KSM that most of us are on about, it's the Bush Administration officially sanctioning it.

Well, I dont disagree entirely. But, I have less qualms about the government sanctioning the waterboarding of KSM than you do. In fact, there is quite a measure of hypocrisy in saying its not ok to sanction it, but that you would do it anyway.

On one hand I just with the government would tell everyone to piss off in dealing with such scum as KSM. Personnally, I think waterboarding was too easy for him.

 

[JollyRoger]

Those going through it talk of abject terror

So it's terrorism, not torture.

 

[brennan]

Because pointing a gun at someone doesnt illicit an instintual response like the fear of drowning does. The point being someone can control their fear of being shot with a gun. They cant control their fear of drowning.

Thats what makes it so effective.

If we're talking about the effectiveness of the fear of drowning as regards waterboarding. Then we're a little past the gun pointing stage and into the gaping bullet holes in your flesh stage. Or are you still obstinately refusing to grasp that waterboarding in no way 'simulates' drowning, it is drowning.

 

[warpus]

MobBoss arguing for torture..

What else is new?

 

[Ecofarm]

Waterboarding is not torture. The people who cry about it and the "victims" of it need waaaambulances and nothing more. I've been through plenty of crap in my life that I was like "damn, that sucked but I live" - no blood no foul.

There are states that sanction rape and the murder of females, and you want to cry about someone getting scared?? Give me a break (pun intended). Give me severed limbs or burns. But don't give me "I was scared". What a joke. What if we turn the lights down low and make spooky noises?! Grow up.

 

[philippe]

Waterboarding is not torture. The people who cry about it and the "victims" of it need waaaambulances and nothing more. I've been through plenty of crap in my life that I was like "damn, that sucked but I live" - no blood no foul.

There are states that sanction rape and the murder of females, and you want to cry about someone getting scared?? Give me a break (pun intended). Give me severed limbs or burns. But don't give me "I was scared". What a joke. What if we turn the lights down low and make spooky noises?! Grow up.

that's not a valid statement. Feeling you are going to die is way worse then just "being scared".

From your own battle experience, wouldn't you dare to say, some poeple are scared poopless just from the sound of gunfire directed at them?

It's the same response, and that's becuase both things come up:

the feeling you might really actually die now

 

[MobBoss]

If we're talking about the effectiveness of the fear of drowning as regards waterboarding. Then we're a little past the gun pointing stage and into the gaping bullet holes in your flesh stage. Or are you still obstinately refusing to grasp that waterboarding in no way 'simulates' drowning, it is drowning.

I am not convinced it 'is' drowning.

 

[MobBoss]

MobBoss arguing for torture..

What else is new?

You got it wrong. I am not arguing 'for' anything here. I am merely saying I recognize a difference between 'fear' as a stimulus and 'pain'.

And apparently you didnt catch that Igloodude is positively FOR toture as well for folks like KSM. Or did you miss that utterly as it was flying over your wittle head?

 

[warpus]

MobBoss, it is desgined to fool you to THINK that you are drowning.

That's why it's so effective.

What's scary though, is that Ecofarm has "battle experiene". Let's hope that this is a reference to WoW.

 

[MobBoss]

MobBoss, it is desgined to fool you to THINK that you are drowning.

That's why it's so effective.

What's scary though, is that Ecofarm has "battle experiene". Let's hope that this is a reference to WoW.

You state here what I have already said several times in this thread. Thanks for helping out!

 

[warpus]

If you get waterboarded, you go through the exact same feelings/bodily reactions as if you were drowning.

That's why it's torture.

Moving along...