Anti-fascists not welcome in Estonia

[Gelion]

While I dare to say that if Soviet Union had not invaded Estonia and controlled it for 48 years the people there would be much less pro-fascist/nazi, I agree that in argument about morality of Estonian actions this is irrelevant.

True, I agree to that

Rush Limbaugh is also controversial person. So was Hitler. And Lenin too. Controversial person is just a person that has opinions that differ enough from mainstream.

Yeah, but the key difference is what you read first. If you read that:

On the whole, he [Johan Backman] does not recognize them as states [Latvia and Estonia]. Bäckman has frequently travelled to Russia since 1993,

You'd get pretty upset with this person and his so-called pro-Russian views. If you read that:

Erkki Johan Bäckman (born 18 May 1971) is a controversial Finnish political author, legal sociologist and criminologist

you'd be more calm about his views and don't take his preferences nearly as seriously.

 

[Ayn Rand]

Can you explain what commemorating Nazi veterans has to do with Red Army veterans?

Those "Nazi" veterans joined the army to protect their country from those Red Army veterans, who invaded Estonia the year before and who tried to impose a totalitarian regime on the free people of Estonia.

Let's discuss American unprovoked invasion of Vietnam and Iraq instead - should the U.S veterans be banned from getting together? Don't the Americans want them to learn from their mistakes?

1. America was giving assistance to South Vietnam, who were under attack from North Vietnam, at the request of the government of South Vietnam - the USA did not invade the North. There was no invasion at all, never mind an unprovoked invasion.

2. Iraq invaded Kuwait - America responded by defending Kuwait at the request of the Kuwaiti government and many other Middle Eastern governments and the UN. America then refrained from invading Iraq in the hope of ending it more peacefully. Once again - no invasion, never mind an unprovoked invasion. It was only 11 years later that the Americans had to overthrow Saddam because the madman would not give in. Hardly an unprovoked invasion.

I'm glad we discussed this.

 

[red_elk]

So if a soldier fights for independence of his country and didn't commit atrocities (I think that you do not count killing enemy soldiers in combat an atrocity) praising him would be morally wrong? Do you consider it morally wrong when people in USA celebrate soldiers who fought for independence of USA? Because that is ultimately from the soldiers point of view point same thing.

If he was conscripted in pro-German army, then no. If he voluntarily joined SS, he is a criminal according to Nuremberg trial - thus he is wrong, morally and legally.

 

[Maaximillus]

Estonian and Baltic SS were generally not combat troops (as they were of dubious quality) but used for "anti-partisan" activities, which basically entailed the extermination of communists and rounding up of Jews.

Even if you do not believe it, there were Soviet patriots in Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_partisans#Estonia.2C_Latvia_and_Lithuania

But then again that does fall under the "extermination of communists" part

 

[Gelion]

Those "Nazi" veterans joined the army to protect their country from those Red Army veterans, who invaded Estonia the year before and who tried to impose a totalitarian regime on the free people of Estonia.

A lot of Estonians joined the Red Army and fought in its ranks even when they had a perfect chance to defect or flee.

 

[Ayn Rand]

A lot of Estonians joined the Red Army and fought in its ranks even when they had a perfect chance to defect or flee.

Good for them, they were forcefully conscripted into the winning totalitarian regime of mass murderers.

Do they get a cookie?

 

[Maaximillus]

If he was conscripted in pro-German army, then no. If he voluntarily joined SS, he is a criminal according to Nuremberg trial - thus he is wrong, morally and legally.

If a soldier voluntarily join an evil organization, but does that in belief that he will gain freedom by joining it and if he commits nothing more but fighting in combat aka no killing civilians/prisoners or anything like that, what makes that person evil? Because this was the scenario that lone wolf presented.

Is the mere fact that he was part of evil organization without doing anything immoral or evil enough to become wrong and evil person? Or is it the fact that he voluntarily became soldier? Or is it that ultimately a trial that automatically declares every member of the said organization to be evil enough? Even if the person never was on the trial and quite possibly died long before?

 

[Gelion]

Good for them, they were forcefully conscripted into the winning totalitarian regime of mass murderers.

I said that they had a chance to flee didn't I? Why do you think they did not? Because their families were help hostage by the NKVD? I guess they believed in something.

As for the regime of mas murderers, as an American, the nation that bombed Dresden, Horoshima and Nagasaki as well as exterminated most of the native population I do not see how you could hold USSR of 1940's in negative light...

 

[red_elk]

Those "Nazi" veterans joined the army to protect their country from those Red Army veterans, who invaded Estonia the year before and who tried to impose a totalitarian regime on the free people of Estonia.

And, BTW, helped friendly regime to exterminate some thousands of Jews and Slavs. Not a big deal.

1. America was giving assistance to South Vietnam, who were under attack from North Vietnam, at the request of the government of South Vietnam - the USA did not invade the North. There was no invasion at all, never mind an unprovoked invasion.

2. Iraq invaded Kuwait - America responded by defending Kuwait at the request of the Kuwaiti government and many other Middle Eastern governments and the UN. America then refrained from invading Iraq in the hope of ending it more peacefully. Once again - no invasion, never mind an unprovoked invasion. It was only 11 years later that the Americans had to overthrow Saddam because the madman would not give in. Hardly an unprovoked invasion.
I'm glad we discussed this.

How do you think, should the Americans say sorry to Vietnamese people for all the atrocities which the U.S. army committed to their country? May be there must be some kind of trial to punish American officials and soldiers who were involved in crimes? To pay compensation for destroyed country?

 

[Maaximillus]

Good for them, they were forcefully conscripted into the winning totalitarian regime of mass murderers.

Do they get a cookie?

You underestimate the Soviet influence in Eastern Europe. For every pro-nazi there was probably atleast one pro-soviet if not more.

 

[red_elk]

Is the mere fact that he was part of evil organization without doing anything immoral or evil enough to become wrong and evil person?

The question is how you define immoral thing here. What if he was a guard in concentration camp, who didn't kill anybody by himself? Or soldier, who delivered an order to kill group of Jews?

 

[Ayn Rand]

I said that they had a chance to flee didn't I? Why do you think they did not? Because their families were help hostage by the NKVD? I guess they believed in something.

So they voluntarily helped totalitarian communism invade and enslave their own people. That just makes it worse.

As for the regime of mas murderers, as an American, the nation that bombed Dresden, Horoshima and Nagasaki as well as exterminated most of the native population I do not see how you could hold USSR of 1940's in negative light...

I'm English, but those first three actions were legitimate military actions. And America didn't exterminate the Native Americans - they still exist, and have some nice casinos.

And, BTW, helped friendly regime to exterminate some thousands of Jews and Slavs. Not a big deal.

Helped? The ones who helped have been put on trial and sent to prison or executed. The ordinary soldier was only helping indirectly, in the sense that he was fighting for his Country while his Country did something immoral, without him being able to control it or perhaps even knowing about it - there's a bit of a difference.

How do you think, should the Americans say sorry to Vietnamese people for all the atrocities which the U.S. army committed to their country? May be there must be some kind of trial to punish American officials and soldiers who were involved in crimes? To pay compensation for destroyed country?

Sure, when the Vietnamese pay America compensation for the 40,000 dead Americans and huge expense of the war, and apologise for their continual aggression, we can look into that.

 

[Karalysia]

Estonia owes its very existence to the glorious USSR, if the Germans had their way the Estonians would largely have been turned into a German colony, the people exterminated and settled becoming part of Germany essentially forever. The Soviets not only modernized and industrialized Estonia in addition to introducing the progressive glories of socialism they also preserved the culture, language, and heritage of the Estonian SSR which was given a great deal of autonomy along with the other republics of the USSR.

The fact is that Estonia has no historical basis for existing, it was created by the Western imperialist powers following World War 1 because they had all this land that Germany had stolen from the Russians and they didn't know what to do with it, so they figured hey lets create some fake countries, thus Estonia, Latvia, Finland, Belarus, and Ukraine were all created. The Soviets were merely rectifying a historical aberration, even an abomination if you will, though perhaps abomination should be reserved for Ukraine or Czechoslovakia.

 

[Maaximillus]

The question is how you define immoral thing here. What if he was a guard in concentration camp, who didn't kill anybody by himself? Or soldier, who delivered an order to kill group of Jews?

You make very valid point. I do not know how to define immoral beyond the deliberate act of evil

 

[Gelion]

So they voluntarily helped totalitarian communism invade and enslave their own people. That just makes it worse.

There was something about fighting against a machine that killed 6,000,000 Jews and untold millions of other "un-worthy" people. I guess we can't find common ground with you here.

I'm English, but those first three actions were legitimate military actions. And America didn't exterminate the Native Americans - they still exist, and have some nice casinos.

I see. I could have sworn that you are an American, I'm sorry.
If you consider all three to be legitimate military actions then I guess we should not discuss mass murder. We have diametrally opposite positions on the matter. You are right, the natives still exist, my bad. So do Africans and Indian Indians.

 

[red_elk]

Helped? The ones who helped have been put on trial and sent to prison or executed. The ordinary soldier was only helping indirectly, in the sense that he was fighting for his Country while his Country did something immoral, without him being able to control it or perhaps even knowing about it - there's a bit of a difference.

Right. The problem is that the ones who helped and sent to prison for that - now are being glorified.

Sure, when the Vietnamese pay America compensation for the 40,000 dead Americans and huge expense of the war, and apologise for their continual aggression, we can look into that.

Fine, in that case Russia should ask for compensation from Finland, Poland and Estonia. For Soviet casualties and war expenses.

 

[Maaximillus]

Estonia owes its very existence to the glorious USSR, if the Germans had their way the Estonians would largely have been turned into a German colony, the people exterminated and settled becoming part of Germany essentially forever. The Soviets not only modernized and industrialized Estonia in addition to introducing the progressive glories of socialism they also preserved the culture, language, and heritage of the Estonian SSR which was given a great deal of autonomy along with the other republics of the USSR.

No matter how much of what you say is silly propaganda it is true that Estonia and Estonians were far better under Soviet control than under German control. Same applies to rest of ex-CCCP Eastern Europe. I find it funny when people compare Soviet occupation to Nazi occupation. There were far worse empires than the Soviet one.

 

[Gelion]

No matter how much of what you say is silly propaganda it is true that Estonia and Estonians were far better under Soviet control than under German control. Same applies to rest of ex-CCCP Eastern Europe. I find it funny when people compare Soviet occupation to Nazi occupation. There were far worse empires than the Soviet one.

I think he does it on purpose, but, yeah, you made a good point. Point I've been trying to get accross actually

 

[Maaximillus]

Fine, in that case Russia should ask for compensation from Finland, Poland and Estonia. For Soviet casualties and war expenses.

They did. Finland paid 300 million dollars war reparations to Soviet Union after WW2.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paris_Peace_Treaties,_1947
EDIT: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moscow_Armistice

 

[Ayn Rand]

There was something about fighting against a machine that killed 6,000,000 Jews and untold millions of other "un-worthy" people. I guess we can't find common ground with you here.

None of that had happened in 1940 when Russia invaded Estonia in an unprovoked attack

I see. I could have sworn that you are an American, I'm sorry.
If you consider all three to be legitimate military actions then I guess we should not discuss mass murder. We have diametrally opposite positions on the matter. You are right, the natives still exist, my bad. So do Africans and Indian Indians.

Thanks for the compliment. They were mass casualty attacks, very unpleasant but an unfortunate part of war.

The American Indians died largely of disease I think. It's not credible to say that America exterminated them - maybe took advantage of their weakness and fought against them, but I don't think there is any legitimacy that they were exterminated. The major damage had been done by the time America was formed.

Right. The problem is that the ones who helped and sent to prison for that - now are being glorified.

That's clearly morally wrong if that's happening, I don't agree with that and they should be arrested. I am talking about combat soldiers who fought in the SS divisions [I think all Estonian divisions came under the command of the SS because of the German command structure]. Those soldiers have the right to respect their dead comrades and frankly it is nobody's business but their own.

60.000, not 40.000
Fine, in that case Russia should ask for compensation from Finland, Poland and Estonia. For Soviet casualties and war expenses.

Not the same. America was not the aggressor in those 2 wars [defending vietnam against the north, defending kuwait against Iraq]. Russia launched unprovoked attacks against those three countries. The issue of aggression is central to the right to compensation, morality and an apology.