Anti-fascists not welcome in Estonia

What people aren't usually getting is that the Estonians and other Baltics aren't celebrating the ideology, but the people. During WW2, they had just two bad choices - fight for the Soviets (who invaded and annexed them a year earlier) or the Germans (who were invading now and had promised to liberate the Baltic states*). One way to fight with the Germans against the Soviets was to join special Waffen-SS groups. This doesn't mean that everybody who joined them was a Nazi; most were not.

Of course the Soviets had won, eventually, and Waffen-SS have become a symbol of all the nasty things the Nazi regime did. Russia is especially sensitive about it, even though some of its own units behaved in the same way. Just read up on how they punished the Balts - thousands executed, tens of thousands deported, all the usual Nazi... uhm, I mean Bolshevik, forgive me for confusing these two ideologies up sometimes, crap.

Estonians just want to honour their war veterans, that's all.


* - They lied.


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EDIT: I wonder if the Russians would allow a group of provocateurs to travel to Russia in order to disrupt a gathering of Russian war veterans. You know, they'd shout "you filthy communists, you fought for Stalin, you criminals!" at the old guys with a self-righteous expression in their faces that only idiots who don't know squat can have.
 
We have no problem with anybody respecting their fallen soldiers, including Germans
Germans are tough soldiers ;). Russians in general have no hard feelings for Germans unless ideology comes into play. Many German war graves in Russia, many Russian ones in Germany.
 
Sounds like an idiot.

I was right.

Spoiler :

On the whole, he [Johan Backman] does not recognize them as states [Latvia and Estonia].

Bäckman has frequently travelled to Russia since 1993,[8] and is fluent in Russian. In 2000, he established a publishing institution named the Johan Beckman [sic] Institute in Saint Petersburg.[9]
In March 2002, during a military historical festival in Suojärvi in the Republic of Karelia which was dedicated to the 62nd anniversary of the end of the Winter War, Bäckman made a sensational claim that the modern authorities of Finland propagated the idea that the Russian people are genetically inferior and expected Russia to collapse in about twenty years.[8][10] The other participants at the festival considered that he unreasonably overestimated the extent of anti-Russian sentiment in Finland.[11] According to Bäckman's article "Finland without a mask" (the title alludes to a 1943 proclamation by Otto Wille Kuusinen), published in Russian in May 2002, the Finns in general consider themselves a superior nation, all Russian women prostitutes, and all Russian men thieves and bandits.[12] During 2002, Bäckman gained an odious reputation both in Russia and among his Finnish colleagues.[13]
In 2002, Bäckman publicly accused the Foreign Ministry of Finland of Russophobia and racism. He claimed that the ministry was preparing a campaign to smear Russia and return the territories lost in the Paris Peace Treaty.[14]
In 2003, Johan Beckman Institute published the book Finland and the Siege of Leningrad 1941-1944 by the Russian historian Nikolai Baryshnikov. The Saint Petersburg legislature awarded Bäckman Marshal Govorov Literature Prize (2003) for that. Historian Timo Vihavainen, a historian at the University of Helsinki described it as "a book built on Stalinist propaganda stereotypes". Vihavainen also said that Baryshnikov had misunderstood some of the language in Finnish archive documents.[15] Bäckman and Baryshnikov threatened to sue Vihavainen. Bäckman is highly critical of the modern Finnish historiography of World War II and challenges the traditional Finnish ideas that Finland waged a separate Continuation War against the aggression of the USSR. According to Bäckman, the Finns participated in the Siege of Leningrad actively and asked Hitler to destroy the city. He speculates that Finland also planned an ethnic cleansing in Karelia in order to create a Fenno-Ugric superpower, possibly stretching as far as the Urals, or even to the river Yenisei, which he claimed is proven by vast amounts of documents and in several Finnish history books by Helge Seppälä, Osmo Hyytiä and Nikolai Baryshnikov.

In his 2007 book Finland washed with Anna Politkovskaya's blood (Finnish: Saatana saapuu Helsinkiin, Literally: Satan Arrives to Helsinki, which alludes to Saatana saapuu Moskovaan, the Finnish language title for The Master and Margarita by Bulgakov) he supported the conspiracy theory that Anna Politkovskaya assassination was organized by circles who wanted to smear the Russian president Vladimir Putin.[18] Bäckman even hints that Politkovskaya was depressed and ordered her own murder. According to Bäckman, Politkovskaya was an American agent. He also criticizes Finns' reaction to the murder of the Russian journalist Anna Politkovskaya. Bäckman accused Finnish Green League politician Heidi Hautala and the Finnish media of inciting hatred towards Russia and Vladimir Putin. Hautala, depicted on the book cover (pictured), saw this as a smear campaign, but refused to take legal action, preferring to allow the book to speak for itself.[17]
Johan Bäckman admires Vladmir Putin, crediting all recent successes of Russia to Putin's personality and health.[19][20] He has compared Putin to Cold War-era Finnish president Urho Kekkonen, and claimed he wishes Putin would likewise rule Russia for 26 years. He stated that Finland also needs organizations such as the pro-Kremlin Nashi and Walking Together.[19] According to Bäckman, the freedom of the press in Russia is considerably higher than in Finland, and Estonia is not free at all.[19]
Bäckman has denied that he is an agent of the FSB.

Bäckman's writings, published in Finland and Estonia, have been regarded as pro-Putin and anti-Estonian.[21] Bäckman has stated that Estonia "does not exist" as a sovereign state[22].

n his highly controversial book about the Estonian Bronze Soldier Pronssisoturi: Viron patsaskiistan tausta ja sisältö, published in Finnish in 2008, Bäckman argues against the integration policies of Estonia. In his opinion, Estonian integration policies that have see some 147,000 Russian speakers receiving Estonian citizenship in the past decade are "apartheid" and represent a "criminal discrimination of Russians"[18]. In the Bronze Soldier he dismissed the Soviet occupation of Estonia as a "Nazi myth".[24] Bäckman has gained wide publicity in Estonia for denying the Soviet occupation during 1940-1941 and 1944-1991:
"In my opinion speaking or writing of Soviet "occupation" should be criminalised as a form of racist propaganda.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Johan_Beckman
 
The problem with such "celebrations" is with people who voluntarily fought on Nazi side and now assuming they did rightful things.

Whereas the USSR's unprovoked invasion of Estonia in 1940 was justified? I imagine the Estonians couldn't care less about the Russian hypocrisy.
 
I was right.

Very selective cut and paste luiz. Thats all anyone needs knowing:

Erkki Johan Bäckman (born 18 May 1971) is a controversial Finnish political author, legal sociologist and criminologist, holding an adjunct professorship in three Finnish universities[1][2].
 
Yeah, and many Holocaust deniers also hold university degrees...

Great find, luiz. It looks like that guy is not only an idiot, he's actually a russophile pawn and a provocateur.
 
Whereas the USSR's unprovoked invasion of Estonia in 1940 was justified? I imagine the Estonians couldn't care less about the Russian hypocrisy.
Who says that? Poland, the victim of that evil Molotoff-Ribentrop pact was an aggressor a few months earlier when they occupied parts of Czech Republic.
 
Who says that? Poland, the victim of that evil Molotoff-Ribentrop pact was an aggressor a few months earlier when they occupied parts of Czech Republic.

Wait what? What does Poland have to do with Estonia and Soviet takeover of Estonia?
 
Wait what? What does Poland have to do with Estonia and Soviet takeover of Estonia?

Exactly, it is about as relevant as "USSR's unprovoked invasion of Estonia in 1940" to allowing "celebrations for people who voluntarily fought on Nazi side and now assuming they did rightful things."

Yeah, and many Holocaust deniers also hold university degrees...
The key word is controversial.

Great find, luiz. It looks like that guy is not only an idiot, he's actually a russophile pawn and a provocateur.
Now that you have fully discredited this guy (a russophile, oh my God!) that we knew nothing about I assume that we will move back to the topic.
 
Very selective cut and paste luiz. Thats all anyone needs knowing:

Erkki Johan Bäckman (born 18 May 1971) is a controversial Finnish political author, legal sociologist and criminologist, holding an adjunct professorship in three Finnish universities[1][2].

That's unfair to say as I posted most of his Wiki entry (and the link to the whole entry). I think it is pretty clear this guy is a nutjob.

I also find the following passage extremely offensive towards Finns and quite a bit offensive towards Russians as well:

the Finns in general consider themselves a superior nation, all Russian women prostitutes, and all Russian men thieves and bandits.[12] During 2002, Bäckman gained an odious reputation both in Russia and among his Finnish colleagues.[13]

What kind of person says something like that? He is essentially stating that in general, Finns are awful bigots.
 
That would be relevant reply, if Russia had annual meetings of NKVD veterans who celebrate invasion of Estonia and deportations.

No, it's a relevant reply regardless.

And it was the Red Army who invaded Estonia, not the NKVD. The same Red Army who launched an unprovoked attack on Finland the year before. The same Red Army that invaded the East of Poland in an unprovoked attack in 1939. The same Red Army that marched into Lithuania and Latvia in 1939.

The Red Army veterans don't seem to be banned from getting together. Don't the Russians want them to learn from their mistakes?

It's pretty obvious that Estonians fought the Soviets because they actually had the pleasure of being invaded by them. It was a choice between one totalitarian regime or another, hardly a great situation for them to be in.
 
That's unfair to say as I posted most of his Wiki entry (and the link to the whole entry). I think it is pretty clear this guy is a nutjob.

You posted the parts that are most convenient for your point. An entire article (that we can all go to and read by the way), would have been more neutral. Your conclusions are your own... ;)
 
Estonia is deserves to be re-occupied by Russia. Fascism must be stamped out wherever it arises, and Russia has a duty to see that this dangerous ideology does not take root near its borders, we must remember the lessons of World War II well, one minute Estonia is persecuting anti-fascists the next minute it invades Latvia and Lithuania for its Lebensraum. This must be strangled in the cradle. It's an entirely artificial country a creation of Western imperialists anyway.
 
Estonia is deserves to be re-occupied by Russia. Fascism must be stamped out wherever it arises, and Russia has a duty to see that this dangerous ideology does not take root near its borders, we must remember the lessons of World War II well, one minute Estonia is persecuting anti-fascists the next minute it invades Latvia and Lithuania for its Lebensraum. This must be strangled in the cradle. It's an entirely artificial country a creation of Western imperialists anyway.

Never heard of this before, but thank you anyway. Very interesting ;)
 
No, it's a relevant reply regardless.

And it was the Red Army who invaded Estonia, not the NKVD. The same Red Army who launched an unprovoked attack on Finland the year before. The same Red Army that invaded the East of Poland in an unprovoked attack in 1939. The same Red Army that marched into Lithuania and Latvia in 1939.

The Red Army veterans don't seem to be banned from getting together. Don't the Russians want them to learn from their mistakes?

It's pretty obvious that Estonians fought the Soviets because they actually had the pleasure of being invaded by them. It was a choice between one totalitarian regime or another, hardly a great situation for them to be in.
Can you explain what commemorating Nazi veterans has to do with Red Army veterans?
Let's discuss American unprovoked invasion of Vietnam and Iraq instead - should the U.S veterans be banned from getting together? Don't the Americans want them to learn from their mistakes?
 
If someone served in the Estonian SS with the main purpose of an independent Estonia and didn't commit atrocities he is morally neutral. Condemning him because of it would be wrong, but any praise would be wrong either. A parade is a form of praise, and thus, morally wrong.
 
Exactly, it is about as relevant as "USSR's unprovoked invasion of Estonia in 1940" to allowing "celebrations for people who voluntarily fought on Nazi side and now assuming they did rightful things."

While I dare to say that if Soviet Union had not invaded Estonia and controlled it for 48 years the people there would be much less pro-fascist/nazi, I agree that in argument about morality of Estonian actions this is irrelevant.


The key word is controversial.

Rush Limbaugh is also controversial person. So was Hitler. And Lenin too. Controversial person is just a person that has opinions that differ enough from mainstream.
 
If someone served in the Estonian SS with the main purpose of an independent Estonia and didn't commit atrocities he is morally neutral. Condemning him because of it would be wrong, but any praise would be wrong either. A parade is a form of praise, and thus, morally wrong.

So if a soldier fights for independence of his country and didn't commit atrocities (I think that you do not count killing enemy soldiers in combat an atrocity) praising him would be morally wrong? Do you consider it morally wrong when people in USA celebrate soldiers who fought for independence of USA? Because that is ultimately from the soldiers point of view point same thing.
 
Let them respect their soldiers who fought and died in war. These are not the same SS that manned the concentration camps, they are the waffen-SS who were a combat formation, and into which many foreigners were conscipted without having a choice anyway.

Estonian and Baltic SS were generally not combat troops (as they were of dubious quality) but used for "anti-partisan" activities, which basically entailed the extermination of communists and rounding up of Jews.
 
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