Anti-fascists not welcome in Estonia

1. Where did you get these data from? (I'm asking about hundreds of Estonian Jews, murdered by the Soviets).
2. Assuming that they were deported, what was the reason for deportation? What crimes they were convicted for, according to the Soviet laws of that time? Were all of them innocent?
3. How many of them perished in Siberia, and did you count for example, people who died 50 years later, being 80 years old, also as murdered by evil Soviet regime?
1. There are several respectable sources about the deportation of the Jews, for instance this report or this book.It is also mentioned here.
Or you could read this article: the author is a Russian Jew.
http://eja.pri.ee/history/Weiss-Wendt_rus.pdf
2. Basically what Traitorfish said. As for them being "Nazi collaborators"... well that would have been weird accusation for Jews. Not to mention that particular wave of deportations took place before Germans even arrived here.
3. "Most" is the most precise I've heard, and some lists of the perished. These are in Estonian, unfortunately. But yes, there were survivors as well.
No, I asked quite clearly, are there any Jews or Slavs amongst people who participate in these annual commemorations. Not veterans, but their supporters.
I have not been present myself, but from local forums and web commentaries, I have gathered that number of Russian people have participated. Yet others said they went to protest against "Nazi parade" but admitted they found neither parade nor Nazis.
 
And, as I said, the Jews certainly saw it coming. They can't've been the only ones in the country with their ears to the ground...
Actually, many did not. From the article I recommended to red_elk (I'll used Google Translate, it's at least understandable with some additional corrections from me):
Spoiler :
However, in the second half of 1941, less than 1000 Jews still remained in German-occupied territory of Estonia. There was a lot of different reasons why some Jews remained. Many of these Jews were not sufficiently informed about the degree of persecution of Jews in Germany and other occupied countries of Europe. In the period before the entry of the Soviet Union in the war the Soviet press ignored the Nazi anti-Jewish actions. Pact, signed by the Soviet government with Germany closed the eyes of many Jews in mortal danger looming over them.95 Nevertheless, some Jewish immigrants from Germany and other occupied countries in Europe have appeared in Estonia too.96 In the period of twenty-two months after the conclusion of the Molotov - Ribbentrop pact, when the Soviet press has refused to comment on anti-Jewish crimes in the Third Reich, a relatively large part of the Jewish population still has access to truthful information.97
In any case, even before the MRP, the Soviet media has never been true. Many Jews reacted skeptically to the Soviet information, considering it propaganda. So not only lack of access to information, but also skepticism in its assessment played a dangerous role. This skepticism was undoubtedly an important factor in the decision of many Jews to remain in Estonia under Nazi occupation.

Another important reason was the fact that many Jews considered Germans a civilized nation dedicated to order. It was difficult to reconcile this stereotype with crimes allegedly committed by the same Germans. Older people especially do not trust the information about the Nazi atrocities against the Jews (remember that the most active and far-looking segment of the Jewish community had emigrated). They are still vividly remembered the German occupation during World War I.99 And indeed, the life of the Jewish community of Narva to the German retreat in November 1918 was more or less calm, and was broken only with the entry bolshevics.100 "I know the Germans, and they I will not do anything wrong! "said 51-year-old Jew from Narva L. Greenberg, in response to entreaties to leave Narva.101 Moreover, those Jews who suffered from the Soviet regime, whose relatives were deported or property nationalized did not trust the information disseminated by the Soviet sources, some believed that with the arrival of the German situation can only get better.102
 
Actually, many did not. From the article I recommended to red_elk (I'll used Google Translate, it's at least understandable with some additional corrections from me):
Still, three quarters is still enough to indicate that Nazi racial policies weren't exactly a secret. That some were unable to see the writing on the wall doesn't undermine the fact that the majority were.
 
I can't decide if the equivalency of the dozens of millions of innocents killed by the Soviets to two mild and one major but still not unprecidented bombing raids is funny or pathetic.

This is neither funny, nor pathetic - considering that your number of "killed innocents" is exaggerated at least by the order of magnitude. And also that you are comparing just a few allies' wrongdoings against all Soviet period of Russian history.
Soviet regime was not more regime of mass murderers than American one.

1. There are several respectable sources about the deportation of the Jews, for instance this report or this book.It is also mentioned here.
Or you could read this article: the author is a Russian Jew.
http://eja.pri.ee/history/Weiss-Wendt_rus.pdf
2. Basically what Traitorfish said. As for them being "Nazi collaborators"... well that would have been weird accusation for Jews. Not to mention that particular wave of deportations took place before Germans even arrived here.
3. "Most" is the most precise I've heard, and some lists of the perished. These are in Estonian, unfortunately. But yes, there were survivors as well.

Yes, that answered some of my questions.
Actually, the document of Weiss-Wendt was quite interesting, here are some information that I found there:
- The number of Jews, deported in June 1941 was 439. I didn't find in this document, and in all the other documents you provided, how many of them died. Also, I didn't find where any of this documents mentioned that most of them died.
- Mentioned that the reasons of repressions against Jewish people were mostly participation in undesired political organization (such as Zionist ones), and also "exploitation" of workers and living on "unearned income" - both were illegal.
- Also mentioned about anti-semitic policies of independent Estonia. For example, Jews could not be employed in any state work. These policies were cancelled in Estonian SSR, and ethnical equality was strictly enforced by the Soviets.

So, whereas the fact of deportation itself is not justified, as apparently, many of innocent people suffered, Soviet and Nazi policies towards Estonian Jews are not even remotely comparable. In first case, there were deportations of group of people, for political or business activities, which were illegal according to the Soviet laws of that time. Without intention to kill. In second case, Nazi policies, we are talking about genocide of pretty much all of non-evacuated Jewish population. For ideological reasons, simply for being Jew.
 
Just to be clear: you're saying that the Stalinist regime was no more mass murderer than that of the US.
Yes, for the reasons which Gelion stated above.
Edit: More specifically, if anybody wants to categorize Soviet regime as "mass murderous" - a whole bunch of other regimes, such as British and American, will fall to the same category.
 
Yes, for the reasons which Gelion stated above.
Edit: More specifically, if anybody wants to categorize Soviet regime as "mass murderous" - a whole bunch of other regimes, such as British and American, will fall to the same category.

That's cool. I just wanted to highlight to everyone reading this that you consider the regime of Stalin no more murderous than that of the USA of the time.

I think people should keep that in mind while addressing other Russian ultra-nationalists.
 
That's cool. I just wanted to highlight to everyone reading this that you consider the regime of Stalin no more murderous than that of the USA of the time.
As usually, putting words into my mouth.
 
Mentioned that the reasons of repressions against Jewish people were mostly ... "exploitation" of workers and living on "unearned income" - both were illegal.
Yeah, except that they applied Soviet laws retroactively, on things which took place during the 30-s or even earlier.
 
Gelion, it would actually help if you knew something about the Nazi "plans" for the East before saying nonsense like that they "(...) planned to kill 100% of (...)".
I don’t know man. My post:
One system was out to kill 10% of my people.
The other one - 100%.
Included:
- No time references
- No references as to what current of Nazi (or even Soviet!) ideology I was talking about
- No mentioning of any nationalities until my next post came in. I talked about “my people”, which, you at least, should be able to figure out.
Instead of asking questions to clarify or even giving me the benefit of the doubt you take my one-liner as something you must refute and just right in. So, lets listen to you:

1st, there was no coherent strategy for a long-term administration of the East. There were several competing "plans", none of which had officially been adopted when the Germans still had time to implement them. Eventually the policy in occupied territories was driven by a weird mixture of pragmatism (how to obtain food for the Wehrmacht) and the usual racist idiocy. I am not talking about the Jews now, we all know that in their case there was a plan.
Thank you Sherlock. I didn’t give any time references, did I? Yes, during the war the Nazis adopted a cruel, but pragmatic policy towards the local population. In the case of my post, Russian people. Now, what I was talking about was LONG TERM policies (if you had asked me you would not be embarrassed now). Communism (Stalinism) that was practiced in Russia, didn’t have a goal of destroying the Russian people as a nationality. Russians were to be “Sovietised’, not destroyed. Nazi long term plans for Slavs is ultimate destruction. Best case scenario – slave race (Predicting your response – no, not like the Soviet system. Real 100% slavery).

2nd, even the worst variants of the plan considered didn't include wholesale extermination of any of the Slavic, Baltic or other nations in the East. Enslavement, exploitation, humiliation, ethnic cleansing, forced expulsions, resettlement - all these things were present in some of the proposed variants, but a 100% extermination? Nope.
I said my people (in that post). Not Slavs in general (where Germanisation may have been an option), not Estonians, but Russian people. Thinks that you listed are also true, but not a nice alternative to extermination anyway.

Jews and Gypsies (what I referenced in my next post next to Slavs,
There's something called Drag nach Osten that you need to now about. If it is not evident to you that Nazi Germany was genociding Jews, Gypsies and Slavs then I see no further point conversing with you.
, were genocided. Slavs were also genocided, not 100%. In any case, my second post talks about “genocide”, not “100% extermination”. Thank you for refuting what I did not say.

3rd, none of this is even relevant in this discussion. Since even the Nazis didn't know what to do in the East, how the hell can you say the Estonians or Ukrainians or whoever else could have had the slightest idea? Again, from the Baltic point of view, Germans were no worse than the Soviets - and they promised liberation (and they lied, but again, the Balts couldn't have known it), so it seemed a good idea to be on their winning side. In their view, they were fighting for their eventual independence.
It is nice that you support your first sentence here with a postulate that you invented on your own. Lets take a quote from Wikipedia which was right brought here as evience by luiz:
Wikipedia said:
Generalplan Ost (GPO) was a Nazi plan to realize Hitler's "new order of ethnographical relations" in the territories occupied by Germany in Eastern Europe during World War II. It was prepared in 1941 and confirmed in 1942. The plan was part of Hitler's own Lebensraum plan and a fulfillment of the Drang nach Osten ("Drive towards the East") state ideology. The final version of Generalplan Ost, essentially a grand plan for ethnic cleansing, was divided into two parts; the Kleine Planung ("Small Plan"), which covered actions which were to be taken during the war, and the Grosse Planung ("Big Plan"), which covered actions to be undertaken after the war was won (to be carried into effect gradually over a period of 25–30 years). The Small Plan was to be put into practice as the Germans conquered the areas to the east of their pre-war borders. The individual stages of this plan would then be worked out in greater detail. In this way the plan for Poland was drawn up at the end of November, 1939. The plan envisaged differing percentages of the various conquered nations undergoing Germanisation, expulsion into the depths of Russia, and other fates, the net effect of which would be to ensure that the conquered territories would be Germanized.

Generally, Slavic people or the "masses of the east" were viewed as untermenschen by Germans because of their supposed mixed races, particularly the East Slavs like Russians and Ukrainians compounded by ideological differences. Some numbers of Slavic peoples were to be Germanized[citation needed], after large number of Slavs were culled to provide more room for Germans (Lebensraum). The remainder would serve the Germans in a subservient role, though the policy was by no means definitive.

Racial theory was often manipulated to suite the political aims of Germany. Slavs were considered Indo-European Aryans, but subservient and "less perfect" than Germans. German anthropologists, for example, considered the Dinaric race of the Southern Slavs to be superior to all other European races except the Nordics.[12] Prior to 1940, Serbs were viewed particularly favourably. Germans compared the unification of Yugoslavia to that of Germany in the late nineteenth century, considered Serbs as kindred peoples (as descendants of the Germanic Goths who dwelt in the Balkans in late Antiquity), they admired the accomplishments of Serbia's Medieval Emperor Dushan, and had often sympathized with their struggle against the Ottoman Empire. Such racial views aligned with the political climate prior to the outbreak of the war, given that, prior to the anti-Nazi uprising in Serbia, Yugoslav foreign policy was generally pro-German.[13] Germany had favoured a Serb-led united Yugoslavia over Croat and Slovene separatist factions, given that a homogeneous Yugoslavia would be more easily responsive to German economic and political interests. However, following the Serb-led anti-Nazi coup d'état, German racial polity radically shifted and became anti-Serb. They now favoured the Croats, who were now viewed to be culturally superior and more akin to Germans, and in a back-flip from previous German support for a united Yugoslavia, Germany dismantled Yugoslavia after the invasion of 1940.[14]

Civilian deaths totaled 15.9 million which included 1.5 million from military actions; 7.1 million victims of Nazi genocide and reprisals; 1.8 million deported to Germany for forced labour; and 5.5 million famine and disease deaths. Additional famine deaths which totaled 1 million during 1946-47 are not included here. The official Polish government report of war losses prepared in 1947 reported 6,028,000 war victims out of a population of 27,007,000 ethnic Poles and Jews; this report excluded ethnic Ukrainian and Belarusian losses.
Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racial_policy_of_Nazi_Germany
I bolded the important part, but you are right, not all Slavic people were going to be exterminated. The most progressive ones (such as for example the Czechs) were going to be Germanised and live happily ever after in a Nazi state cleansed of Jews, Gypsies and dominated by racial ideologies. Still, I would suspect that Russans (the ones I talked about in my first post) were less likely to be Germanised than other “luckier” people and therefore my predictions 10% to 100% still largely stand true in this respect: Russian and many other peoples did FAR better under Communism than under Nazism. If Nazism won they had to participate in ethnic cleansing of at least two nations and that is not something Iwould wish for any nation.

What you're doing here is your typical "let's ignore the facts and focus on throwing dirt at some small nation that dares to disagree with my Russian* point of view."
Thank you for refuting points I didn’t make in 2/3 of your post and correcting me in the 1/3 of your post that was actually relevant. Now that you have done that I say again: Living in a Soviet state was a BETTER alternative for all nations than living in a Nazi state built upon ethnic cleansing and racial pyramid.
I can’t imagine what sits in you if you can bring out quotes like this:
* Russian, therefore right.
Happily, I don’t believe in that. I even agreed with you on something, contrary to my previous post. Don’t you feel embarrassed?
Funny how you or anybody else didn't react to my question whether Russia would allow a group of anti-communist provocateurs to disrupt a gathering of the Russian veterans of the Great Patriot War. Something tells me the answer would be a resounding "Nyet!" :p For this reason alone you have exactly 0% right to criticize Estonia.
That’s just it you see, in Russia, even the neo-Nazis stay away from Great Patriotic War remembrance ceremonies. They are welcome to do that though if it sits well with their conscience.
 
As usually, putting words into my mouth.
I understood your post the same way as luiz. If you meant it in an other way, please refrase your self.
 
Yeah, except that they applied Soviet laws retroactively, on things which took place during the 30-s or even earlier.
According to your sources, no. There was nationalization of property, when Soviets came to power and some Jewish big property owners were arrested despite their attempts to express loyalty to new authorities. Political organizations were also not disbanded, until Soviet period. Admittedly, there could be legal abuses, but don't mix it up with Nazi gas chambers.

I understood your post the same way as luiz. If you meant it in an other way, please refrase your self.
As I said, if you want to use such terminology ("regime of mass-murderers", "unhuman monsters", etc.), don't forget to put pretty much all of Great Powers into the category of mass-murderers.
 
According to your sources, no. There was nationalization of property, when Soviets came to power and some Jewish big property owners were arrested despite their attempts to express loyalty to new authorities. Political organizations were also not disbanded, until Soviet period.

IIRC, Weiss-Wendt mentioned a case of a Jewish merchant who was accused of "anti-Soviet activity" or smth like this, since he had donated money to local defense organizations in the past.

Or, to bring an example from the top of my head, commander-in-chief of Estonian forces, gen. Laidoner was executed under similar charges - for fighting against RSFR in the War of Independence, during 1918-1921. Never mind that was ended with a peace treaty where both sides mutually recognized each other...but we are veering off the point.
Admittedly, there could be legal abuses, but don't mix it up with Nazi gas chambers.
Can I answer with your own words? ;)
As I said, if you want to use such terminology ("regime of mass-murderers", "unhuman monsters", etc.), don't forget to put pretty much all of Great Powers into the category of mass-murderers.
 
As I said, if you want to use such terminology ("regime of mass-murderers", "unhuman monsters", etc.), don't forget to put pretty much all of Great Powers into the category of mass-murderers.
The problem is that terminology applies perfectly to Stalin, who killed not only his country enemies but also countless citizens of his own land. Additionally, the way the Soviets treated the territories they occupied during WW2 was much, much more brutal than the way the Western Allies treated those they occupied.

Put simply, you can't even begin to compare both regimes. Morally, Stalin was much closer to Hitler than to Roosevelt. Who was Roosevelt's Beria? Where was the American NKVD?
There are degrees of wrongdoing. If you want to argue that Roosevelt was no saint, I'll be the first one to say you're right. I consider him the worst 20th Century US President, the closest thing they had to a dictator. But next to Stalin, he was in fact a saint.

Maybe you and your ultra-nationalists friends don't see it that way, but I assure virtually the whole world considers the Soviet regime of the time (Stalin's regime) one of the most vicious in human history. That's how it is remembered in history books throughout the world (though maybe not in Putin's Russia; I have no idea).
 
The problem is that terminology applies perfectly to Stalin, who killed not only his country enemies but also countless citizens of his own land. Additionally, the way the Soviets treated the territories they occupied during WW2 was much, much more brutal than the way the Western Allies treated those they occupied.

Put simply, you can't even begin to compare both regimes. Morally, Stalin was much closer to Hitler than to Roosevelt. Who was Roosevelt's Beria? Where was the American NKVD?
There are degrees of wrongdoing. If you want to argue that Roosevelt was no saint, I'll be the first one to say you're right. I consider him the worst 20th Century US President, the closest thing they had to a dictator. But next to Stalin, he was in fact a saint.

Maybe you and your ultra-nationalists friends don't see it that way, but I assure virtually the whole world considers the Soviet regime of the time (Stalin's regime) one of the most vicious in human history. That's how it is remembered in history books throughout the world (though maybe not in Putin's Russia; I have no idea).

The problem is that I didn't say a word about Stalin or Roosevelt in that message, but as I see you can't stop talking about him.
Tell me more about Stalin, how terrible he was and how whole world hates him. Sounds like you badly need to express your opinion, and need somebody who will listen.
 
The problem is that I didn't say a word about Stalin or Roosevelt in that message, but as I see you can't stop talking about him.
Tell me more about Stalin, how terrible he was and how whole world hates him. Sounds like you badly need to express your opinion, and need somebody who will listen.

Russians still love Stalin. How insane is that? :eek:
 
Fashists are welcome in modern day Estonia. Anti-fashists are not. Discuss :scan:

You need to back up the first part with an event where estonia has allowed some neonazi/fascist activist in that is disallowed to enter other western european countries.

Second part is wrong too because
a) arent allowed in .ee mostly because of statements such as "estonia shouldnt be allowed to exists"
b) they arent really anti-fascist, because they generally cry about bunch of old men in baltics not about real active organizations with fascist/nazi-like view.

-- there are bunch of national-socialist organisations in russia, howcome there are no news about those so called anti-fascists doing something about those
 
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