1. We have added a Gift Upgrades feature that allows you to gift an account upgrade to another member, just in time for the holiday season. You can see the gift option when going to the Account Upgrades screen, or on any user profile screen.
    Dismiss Notice

Anti-fascists not welcome in Estonia

Discussion in 'Off-Topic' started by Gelion, Jul 31, 2010.

  1. Yeekim

    Yeekim Deity

    Joined:
    Sep 13, 2006
    Messages:
    10,290
    Location:
    Estonia
    1. There are several respectable sources about the deportation of the Jews, for instance this report or this book.It is also mentioned here.
    Or you could read this article: the author is a Russian Jew.
    http://eja.pri.ee/history/Weiss-Wendt_rus.pdf
    2. Basically what Traitorfish said. As for them being "Nazi collaborators"... well that would have been weird accusation for Jews. Not to mention that particular wave of deportations took place before Germans even arrived here.
    3. "Most" is the most precise I've heard, and some lists of the perished. These are in Estonian, unfortunately. But yes, there were survivors as well.
    I have not been present myself, but from local forums and web commentaries, I have gathered that number of Russian people have participated. Yet others said they went to protest against "Nazi parade" but admitted they found neither parade nor Nazis.
     
  2. Yeekim

    Yeekim Deity

    Joined:
    Sep 13, 2006
    Messages:
    10,290
    Location:
    Estonia
    Actually, many did not. From the article I recommended to red_elk (I'll used Google Translate, it's at least understandable with some additional corrections from me):
    Spoiler :
     
  3. Traitorfish

    Traitorfish The Tighnahulish Kid

    Joined:
    Sep 14, 2005
    Messages:
    32,460
    Location:
    Scotland
    Still, three quarters is still enough to indicate that Nazi racial policies weren't exactly a secret. That some were unable to see the writing on the wall doesn't undermine the fact that the majority were.
     
  4. red_elk

    red_elk Deity

    Joined:
    Mar 6, 2006
    Messages:
    12,809
    This is neither funny, nor pathetic - considering that your number of "killed innocents" is exaggerated at least by the order of magnitude. And also that you are comparing just a few allies' wrongdoings against all Soviet period of Russian history.
    Soviet regime was not more regime of mass murderers than American one.

    Yes, that answered some of my questions.
    Actually, the document of Weiss-Wendt was quite interesting, here are some information that I found there:
    - The number of Jews, deported in June 1941 was 439. I didn't find in this document, and in all the other documents you provided, how many of them died. Also, I didn't find where any of this documents mentioned that most of them died.
    - Mentioned that the reasons of repressions against Jewish people were mostly participation in undesired political organization (such as Zionist ones), and also "exploitation" of workers and living on "unearned income" - both were illegal.
    - Also mentioned about anti-semitic policies of independent Estonia. For example, Jews could not be employed in any state work. These policies were cancelled in Estonian SSR, and ethnical equality was strictly enforced by the Soviets.

    So, whereas the fact of deportation itself is not justified, as apparently, many of innocent people suffered, Soviet and Nazi policies towards Estonian Jews are not even remotely comparable. In first case, there were deportations of group of people, for political or business activities, which were illegal according to the Soviet laws of that time. Without intention to kill. In second case, Nazi policies, we are talking about genocide of pretty much all of non-evacuated Jewish population. For ideological reasons, simply for being Jew.
     
  5. luiz

    luiz Trendy Revolutionary

    Joined:
    Nov 19, 2001
    Messages:
    20,544
    Just to be clear: you're saying that the Stalinist regime was no more mass murderer than that of the US.
     
  6. red_elk

    red_elk Deity

    Joined:
    Mar 6, 2006
    Messages:
    12,809
    Yes, for the reasons which Gelion stated above.
    Edit: More specifically, if anybody wants to categorize Soviet regime as "mass murderous" - a whole bunch of other regimes, such as British and American, will fall to the same category.
     
  7. luiz

    luiz Trendy Revolutionary

    Joined:
    Nov 19, 2001
    Messages:
    20,544
    That's cool. I just wanted to highlight to everyone reading this that you consider the regime of Stalin no more murderous than that of the USA of the time.

    I think people should keep that in mind while addressing other Russian ultra-nationalists.
     
  8. red_elk

    red_elk Deity

    Joined:
    Mar 6, 2006
    Messages:
    12,809
    As usually, putting words into my mouth.
     
  9. Yeekim

    Yeekim Deity

    Joined:
    Sep 13, 2006
    Messages:
    10,290
    Location:
    Estonia
    Yeah, except that they applied Soviet laws retroactively, on things which took place during the 30-s or even earlier.
     
  10. Gelion

    Gelion Captain

    Joined:
    Jul 25, 2004
    Messages:
    11,283
    Location:
    Earth Dome
    I don’t know man. My post:
    Included:
    - No time references
    - No references as to what current of Nazi (or even Soviet!) ideology I was talking about
    - No mentioning of any nationalities until my next post came in. I talked about “my people”, which, you at least, should be able to figure out.
    Instead of asking questions to clarify or even giving me the benefit of the doubt you take my one-liner as something you must refute and just right in. So, lets listen to you:

    Thank you Sherlock. I didn’t give any time references, did I? Yes, during the war the Nazis adopted a cruel, but pragmatic policy towards the local population. In the case of my post, Russian people. Now, what I was talking about was LONG TERM policies (if you had asked me you would not be embarrassed now). Communism (Stalinism) that was practiced in Russia, didn’t have a goal of destroying the Russian people as a nationality. Russians were to be “Sovietised’, not destroyed. Nazi long term plans for Slavs is ultimate destruction. Best case scenario – slave race (Predicting your response – no, not like the Soviet system. Real 100% slavery).

    I said my people (in that post). Not Slavs in general (where Germanisation may have been an option), not Estonians, but Russian people. Thinks that you listed are also true, but not a nice alternative to extermination anyway.

    Jews and Gypsies (what I referenced in my next post next to Slavs,
    , were genocided. Slavs were also genocided, not 100%. In any case, my second post talks about “genocide”, not “100% extermination”. Thank you for refuting what I did not say.

    It is nice that you support your first sentence here with a postulate that you invented on your own. Lets take a quote from Wikipedia which was right brought here as evience by luiz:
    I bolded the important part, but you are right, not all Slavic people were going to be exterminated. The most progressive ones (such as for example the Czechs) were going to be Germanised and live happily ever after in a Nazi state cleansed of Jews, Gypsies and dominated by racial ideologies. Still, I would suspect that Russans (the ones I talked about in my first post) were less likely to be Germanised than other “luckier” people and therefore my predictions 10% to 100% still largely stand true in this respect: Russian and many other peoples did FAR better under Communism than under Nazism. If Nazism won they had to participate in ethnic cleansing of at least two nations and that is not something Iwould wish for any nation.

    Thank you for refuting points I didn’t make in 2/3 of your post and correcting me in the 1/3 of your post that was actually relevant. Now that you have done that I say again: Living in a Soviet state was a BETTER alternative for all nations than living in a Nazi state built upon ethnic cleansing and racial pyramid.
    I can’t imagine what sits in you if you can bring out quotes like this:
    Happily, I don’t believe in that. I even agreed with you on something, contrary to my previous post. Don’t you feel embarrassed?
    That’s just it you see, in Russia, even the neo-Nazis stay away from Great Patriotic War remembrance ceremonies. They are welcome to do that though if it sits well with their conscience.
     
  11. storealex

    storealex In service of peace

    Joined:
    Jul 22, 2003
    Messages:
    3,710
    Location:
    Denmark
    I understood your post the same way as luiz. If you meant it in an other way, please refrase your self.
     
  12. red_elk

    red_elk Deity

    Joined:
    Mar 6, 2006
    Messages:
    12,809
    According to your sources, no. There was nationalization of property, when Soviets came to power and some Jewish big property owners were arrested despite their attempts to express loyalty to new authorities. Political organizations were also not disbanded, until Soviet period. Admittedly, there could be legal abuses, but don't mix it up with Nazi gas chambers.

    As I said, if you want to use such terminology ("regime of mass-murderers", "unhuman monsters", etc.), don't forget to put pretty much all of Great Powers into the category of mass-murderers.
     
  13. Yeekim

    Yeekim Deity

    Joined:
    Sep 13, 2006
    Messages:
    10,290
    Location:
    Estonia
    IIRC, Weiss-Wendt mentioned a case of a Jewish merchant who was accused of "anti-Soviet activity" or smth like this, since he had donated money to local defense organizations in the past.

    Or, to bring an example from the top of my head, commander-in-chief of Estonian forces, gen. Laidoner was executed under similar charges - for fighting against RSFR in the War of Independence, during 1918-1921. Never mind that was ended with a peace treaty where both sides mutually recognized each other...but we are veering off the point.
    Can I answer with your own words? ;)
     
  14. luiz

    luiz Trendy Revolutionary

    Joined:
    Nov 19, 2001
    Messages:
    20,544
    The problem is that terminology applies perfectly to Stalin, who killed not only his country enemies but also countless citizens of his own land. Additionally, the way the Soviets treated the territories they occupied during WW2 was much, much more brutal than the way the Western Allies treated those they occupied.

    Put simply, you can't even begin to compare both regimes. Morally, Stalin was much closer to Hitler than to Roosevelt. Who was Roosevelt's Beria? Where was the American NKVD?
    There are degrees of wrongdoing. If you want to argue that Roosevelt was no saint, I'll be the first one to say you're right. I consider him the worst 20th Century US President, the closest thing they had to a dictator. But next to Stalin, he was in fact a saint.

    Maybe you and your ultra-nationalists friends don't see it that way, but I assure virtually the whole world considers the Soviet regime of the time (Stalin's regime) one of the most vicious in human history. That's how it is remembered in history books throughout the world (though maybe not in Putin's Russia; I have no idea).
     
  15. red_elk

    red_elk Deity

    Joined:
    Mar 6, 2006
    Messages:
    12,809
    The problem is that I didn't say a word about Stalin or Roosevelt in that message, but as I see you can't stop talking about him.
    Tell me more about Stalin, how terrible he was and how whole world hates him. Sounds like you badly need to express your opinion, and need somebody who will listen.
     
  16. Julian Delphiki

    Julian Delphiki Anton's key

    Joined:
    Nov 3, 2006
    Messages:
    2,738
    Location:
    Helsinki, Funland
    Russians still love Stalin. How insane is that? :eek:
     
  17. Mallipeep

    Mallipeep Warlord

    Joined:
    Nov 6, 2002
    Messages:
    150
    You need to back up the first part with an event where estonia has allowed some neonazi/fascist activist in that is disallowed to enter other western european countries.

    Second part is wrong too because
    a) arent allowed in .ee mostly because of statements such as "estonia shouldnt be allowed to exists"
    b) they arent really anti-fascist, because they generally cry about bunch of old men in baltics not about real active organizations with fascist/nazi-like view.

    -- there are bunch of national-socialist organisations in russia, howcome there are no news about those so called anti-fascists doing something about those
     
  18. red_elk

    red_elk Deity

    Joined:
    Mar 6, 2006
    Messages:
    12,809
    Because he was the greatest ruler in the history of mankind. I for one, pray to him three times a day.
     
  19. Julian Delphiki

    Julian Delphiki Anton's key

    Joined:
    Nov 3, 2006
    Messages:
    2,738
    Location:
    Helsinki, Funland
    Has he responded to your prayers yet?
     
  20. Traitorfish

    Traitorfish The Tighnahulish Kid

    Joined:
    Sep 14, 2005
    Messages:
    32,460
    Location:
    Scotland
    And Britons still think that the Empire was a good thing. People have very effective filtration systems when it comes to nostalgia.
     

Share This Page