Anti-fascists not welcome in Estonia

What does it matter what their justification was? They were both totally insane.
You asked about the collaborators, not the regimes themselves, so the justification becomes paramount. One group collaborated with a regime which presented itself as a progressive collectivist democracy, the other which actively touted the virtues of its genocidal totalitarianism. That says something about the individuals in question, whether or not they were duped.
 
You asked about the collaborators, not the regimes themselves, so the justification becomes paramount. One group collaborated with a regime which presented itself as a progressive collectivist democracy,

Yeah, except that they had been living under the "progressive collectivist democracy" for a few years at that point and had figured out just how progressive it was.

the other which actively touted the virtues of its genocidal totalitarianism. That says something about the individuals in question, whether or not they were duped.

And also promised them freedom from an oppressive foreign regime and actively dispersed their hated occupier. I don't know about you but I don't know if I could make that distinction with such a clear head as you claim to have, not when the wrong decision could mean my wife and child laying dead in a (Nazi or Soviet) ditch. These were terrible times. You cant seriously attempt the moral high ground in this issue, not without the lives of your family and everyone you love unaffected by it's immediate outcome.
 
Yeah, except that they had been living under the "progressive collectivist democracy" for a few years at that point and had figured out just how progressive it was.
Well, firstly, I thought that we were referencing the collaborators at the time of each invasion, rather than both at the time of the Nazi invasion. Secondly, the period between each invasion represents a military occupation of less than two years, which gives pro-Soviet Estonians no more reason to assume that the regime at that time was representative of a long-term Soviet occupation than pro-US Iraqis would have had to believe that 2005 represents the entirety of Iraq's future.

And also promised them freedom from an oppressive foreign regime and actively dispersed their hated occupier. I don't know about you but I don't know if I could make that distinction with such a clear head as yourself when the wrong decision could mean my wife and child lying in a ditch. These were terrible times. You cant seriously attempt the moral high ground in this issue, not without the lives of your family and everyone you love unaffected by it's immediate outcome.
You assume rather more of my position than is reasonable. I merely observed that the Third Reich was a more self-evidently villainous entity than the Soviet Union, nothing more.
 
One of them preached the equality of all mankind and the virtue of egalitarian society, the other Germanic supremacy and the virtue of ethnic cleansing?

If you preach equality and end up deporting over 10% of a country's adult population, they might be tempted to side with people who don't preach equality.
 
Let them respect their soldiers who fought and died in war. These are not the same SS that manned the concentration camps, they are the waffen-SS who were a combat formation, and into which many foreigners were conscipted without having a choice anyway.

WaffenSS of foreign formations werent all volunteer ?

In fact Estonia call to arms resulted in an excess of 60,000 volunteers for there "self defence + flak handlers" formations stationed on there native soil. When the Germans tried to use them to bolster there norminal formations the estonians rebelled and had to but put down with force.

Are you making up crap again ?
 
So basically the issue doesn't matter just which side you are culturally and historically inclined to hate? Right? Because basically what you are saying is that you're judging two crappy books on which has a prettier cover, despite the fact that they both contain the same content.
Thats just it you see, the fact that they are both written in the same language doesn't mean that they have the same content.
I cant understand your first sentance, sorry.
 
If you preach equality and end up deporting over 10% of a country's adult population, they might be tempted to side with people who don't preach equality.
True enough. The pro-Nazi Estonians may have been siding with the greater evil, but they were doing so in reaction to a military occupation, rather than a somewhat corrupt parliamentary democracy, as the pro-Soviets were. That said, it's quite likely that many of the pro-Soviets feared (apparently quite rightly) the threat of a German invasion, and so sought the protection of the USSR. Neither side is without it's ambiguities.
 
You assume rather more of my position than is reasonable. I merely observed that the Third Reich was a more self-evidently villainous entity than the Soviet Union, nothing more.
Indeed. After all, the Soviets were our allies whom we only helped to win the war, not the other way around. They made far greater sacrifices than anybody else to achieve that victory.
 
Well, firstly, I thought that we were referencing the collaborators at the time of each invasion, rather than both at the time of the Nazi invasion. Secondly, the period between each invasion represents a military occupation of less than two years, which gives pro-Soviet Estonians no more reason to assume that the regime at that time was representative of a long-term Soviet occupation than pro-US Iraqis would have had to believe that 2005 represents the entirety of Iraq's future.

No. The USSR clearly intended to re-conquer the former territories of the Russian Empire, everyone knew this. Every Estonian knew that unless a foreign power intervened, they were stuck for the foreseeable future. It has very little to no similarity to modern Iraq.

Thats just it you see, the fact that they are both written in the same language doesn't mean that they have the same content.
I cant understand your first sentance, sorry.

This is dangerously close to becoming a soviet-nazi murder statistics argument and no one likes those. My point is that anyone who claims to have as clear a moral stance on this issue as you do is just fooling themselves.
 
One of them preached the equality of all mankind and the virtue of egalitarian society, the other Germanic supremacy and the virtue of ethnic cleansing?

The Soviets didn't do a very good job at presenting themselves as egalitarian, given the degree to which they were loathed, to which they were feared, and to which they practiced genocide of their own (mass deportations).

You asked about the collaborators, not the regimes themselves, so the justification becomes paramount. One group collaborated with a regime which presented itself as a progressive collectivist democracy, the other which actively touted the virtues of its genocidal totalitarianism. That says something about the individuals in question, whether or not they were duped.

And the Nazis presented themselves as liberators to the Baltic states. Eventually the deception wore off, but some cannot be blamed for falling for it in the situation.

Anyway, I thought that most people of the Baltics who found themselves in Nazi uniform were illegally forced into it. :confused:
 
This is dangerously close to becoming a soviet-nazi murder statistics argument and no one likes those. My point is that anyone who claims to have as clear a moral stance on this issue as you do is just fooling themselves.

Its quite simple really. If you forget the ideals of both ideologies you get this:
One system was out to kill 10% of my people.
The other one - 100%.
We won. I like it. No great ammount of statistics needed.
 
Yeah, the Germans who "liberated" Estonia came in saying "Alright, we are going to kill 100% of you!", who's down?
There's something called Drag nach Osten that you need to now about. If it is not evident to you that Nazi Germany was genociding Jews, Gypsies and Slavs then I see no further point conversing with you.
 
There's something called Drag nach Osten that you need to now about. If it is not evident to you that Nazi Germany was genociding Jews, Gypsies and Slavs then I see no further point conversing with you.

Estonians are none of the above.
 
The Soviets didn't do a very good job at presenting themselves as egalitarian, given the degree to which they were loathed, to which they were feared, and to which they practiced genocide of their own (mass deportations).
Quite possibly the case, but, as I said previously, one cannot assume that those who collaborated during the initial invasions realised the extent of Soviet atrocities during the invasion, nor are they likely to have believed that the repression of the regime was anything other than a temporary state of affairs. Let's remember Hanlon's Razor, after all; don't assume that these people were evil when gullibility is also a sufficient explanation.
Also, the deportations do not constitute genocide, as they were not, in themselves, murders (even if many murders resulted). Nor can they properly be considered a form of ethnic cleansing, because the program did was neither aimed at ethnic Estonians as such, nor was it intended to cleanse Estonia of them. This sort of terminology is very powerful, so it's best to get it right, lest we devalue it.

And the Nazis presented themselves as liberators to the Baltic states. Eventually the deception wore off, but some cannot be blamed for falling for it in the situation.
Well, as I said, there are certainly ambiguities. What I really meant was that the Soviets, for all their sins, at least had something which could legitimately be considered a noble cause, while the Nazis were open racial supremacists. Even if their penchant for genocide hadn't yet been revealed to the general population, their advocacy of ethnic cleansing was well known, having been an integral part of the party platform since the publication of Mein Kampf.
 
Estonians are none of the above.
Good for them. I suspect they might even had a place in the world dominated by racial theories after all of the three above were eliminated. 2nd class citizens of a 2nd class race. Oh joy!
 
Good for them. I suspect they might even had a place in the world dominated by racial theories after all of the three above were eliminated. 2nd class citizens of a 2nd class race. Oh joy!

Since the Jerries were in no mood to go ethnically cleanse Finland, I doubt they would have done the same to the Estonians.

2nd class race, at least they know their place.
 
Since the Jerries were in no mood to go ethnically cleanse Finland, I doubt they would have done the same to the Estonians.

2nd class race, at least they know their place.
I'd say equal rights suit people better in general, but lets leave this opinion of yours as a concluding remark in our debate.
 
Estonians are none of the above.
The Nazis never really figured out their position on Finnic peoples. They were never openly hostile, because their alliance of opportunity with Finland prevented it (same reason that the Japanese shot up a few ranks in the Nazi racial hierarchy after the Axis was formed). They were one of those funny groups like Celts and Hungarians who were neither Germanic nor "Mediterranean", but were not Slavic. Either way, they certainly weren't on any Nazi's list of preferred ethnicities...
 
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