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Antifa the Terrorist Organization

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Unlikely indeed.
So you're saying there is need for violence?
And that violence does not qualify as terrorism because...?
I'm guessing because there's no international definition for terrorism, and this forum is not solely made up of people from America.

I mean, I could be off base. But my failed attempts at asking people to define what they mean by various labels has gotten me nowhere, so I'm stuck with charitable assumptions instead :p

There's also a neat derail in here about how terrorism is used to call something automatically bad, instead of looking at history and all the social change enacted by, well, breaking the law. And yes, also violence. I saw the phrase "hard-won rights" on the previous page. For all hard-won rights in history, very few were won peacefully. Heck, that's the core of the conservative defense of the right to bear arms. Sadly not extended to the opposition of a literally fascist body.

Regardless, it seems we as a species are doomed to read about the result of the morality of opposing Nazis in another life, in a text book, in however many generations time.
 
Whats your better alternative?

(But let me be clear that imo violence as the very first resort is always a huge warning sign)
I don't know? But, if indeed some leftist folks in US have reached the point where they feel that their best/only way ahead is to use violence such as bombings to pressure the government to change tack, then they might as well call it for what it is. :dunno:
I'm guessing because there's no international definition for terrorism
More precisely, there are several.
See this, for instance:
http://treaties.un.org/doc/db/Terrorism/english-18-11.pdf
 
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Organizations can be authoritarian scum without being fascists. We've seen plenty of examples, Antifa is a well-known one among many.
But antifa isn't an organization. I am not even sure they are a "group". They weren't even a thing until recently. I didn't they existed until a couple years ago, did you?
 
If they declare Antifa a terrorist organization then they should also declare Football/Soccer Hooligans a Terrorist Organization!

Yes, they are a terror/hate group. Good luck getting the "politically unmotivated" Southern Poverty Law Center to recognize them as such.
They hate Fascists and are a danger to fascistic society! The Horror! THE HORROR!
 
If they declare Antifa a terrorist organization then they should also declare Football/Soccer Hooligans a Terrorist Organization!


They hate Fascists and are a danger to fascistic society! The Horror! THE HORROR!

The problem is that they attack/bully/harass people & property that have nothing to do with fascism using anti-fascism as a pretense.
 
The problem is that they attack/bully/harass people & property that have nothing to do with fascism using anti-fascism as a pretense.
Another random assertion levelled at random people. Do we have any particulars, any at all?
 
@Broken_Erika Soccer Hooligans are worse then terrorists - their rampaging does not even serve any purpose.

On the subject of concentration camps: even the most liberal of countries have facilities where persons who have applied for asylum are being detained while their application is being reviewed. Whether or not they can be called concentration camps depends on their size and living conditions, I guess... but they exist. Simply closing them down does not seem like a particularly well thought out solution.
 
Another random assertion levelled at random people. Do we have any particulars, any at all?

Yes, we do. But since Antifa has a bit of the "anonymous" issue per your earlier point (different people mean different things when they say it/claim it) I don't know what you'd be willing to count. But we do have specific examples of people self-claiming to be "Antifa" doing these things.
 
The problem is that they attack/bully/harass people & property that have nothing to do with fascism using anti-fascism as a pretense.

Yes, we do. But since Antifa has a bit of the "anonymous" issue per your earlier point (different people mean different things when they say it/claim it) I don't know what you'd be willing to count. But we do have specific examples of people self-claiming to be "Antifa" doing these things.
Citations please
 
On the subject of concentration camps: even the most liberal of countries have facilities where persons who have applied for asylum are being detained while their application is being reviewed. Whether or not they can be called concentration camps depends on their size and living conditions, I guess... but they exist. Simply closing them down does not seem like a particularly well thought out solution.

It has never been common practice in the US to detain everyone undergoing asylum proceedings. The vast majority of people are simply considered no threat to run, ie, it is assumed they will show up for their court dates.

But of course, you are (once again) speaking in ignorance of this topic as it pertains to the US. Trump is not merely using facilities to hold people who have applied for asylum. There is talk that the administration will outright get rid of the refugee resettlement program, and the existing combination of "metering" (letting three or four people in per border checkpoint per day for literally no reason) and what is called, in typical Orwellian fashion, "migrant protection protocol" or MPP (rather than detaining people whose asylum claims are being processed, simply leave them to live rough in Mexican border towns some of which contend for the highest murder rates in the entire world) make the asylum process into a farce. There is no way of even really knowing how many people subject to MPP have been kidnapped or murdered but what reporting there is gives plenty of reason to believe the numbers aren't small.

To be clear, the asylum process was riddled with problems under previous administrations as well, but at least past administrations mostly worked within the spirit of the law, the problem has always been that the law sucks. This administration is openly hostile to the whole idea of taking in refugees.
 
It has never been common practice in the US to detain everyone undergoing asylum proceedings

Which is how so many people end up in literal cages for months pooping on themselves. The facilities now being run like concentration camps were built up under Obama with great fanfare for the purpose of very short-duration stays while people were processed and then sent on buses to join their families and friends in the US. Despite all the cries of tyranny and ignoring conservatives, Obama acted on the push from the population and the GOP for tougher borders by trying to build up the facilities to handle migrants within the rule of law to speed up the process and make the border harder to penetrate and asylum harder to obtain. What changed and made the system begin to collapse was new guidelines from Trump which do not allow anyone to be released - the intent being to be so cruel as to discourage migration in the first place which has warped into a repeat of our WWII and wild west-era internment tactics.

Another major issue which started under Obama is that the CBP is advertised to job-seekers as a Seal Team Six sort of job for people who wanted to catch terrorists and drug smugglers while at the same time it was dramatically expanded (by like 50% in a few years or something similarly crazy). While the CBP does stop terrorists and drug runners, most of the job is taking care of desperate people who are looking for CBP to surrender to in order to claim asylum. The job needs humanitarian-minded people but wound up with a bunch of Rambo wannabes that quickly burned out but not until after taking out their pent up aggression on very desperate, ragged refugees. CBP essentially self-radicalized - all of the problems pointed out about police forces in this country are taken to an extreme in the CBP and ICE due mainly to the types of people it has recruited who bring a lot of aggression, racism and mental baggage with them to a job where they're given a badge, a gun and a lot of autonomy and authority. Meanwhile, in response to the inhumane conditions that migrants are being put through, more people have rushed the border in hopes of crossing before things get even worse which is completely counter-intuitive.

Unsurprisingly, CBP has lost around 2,000 employees (about a dozen a week) even as Trump campaigned on hiring 5,000 more officers. The whole system was rotting before Trump took over but now that depravity has become the point of the exercise, the rot has consumed the entire crop.

NPR had a great segment on the recent history of BCP if anyone is interested.

https://www.npr.org/2019/07/18/7430...ption-dysfunction-at-border-protection-agency
 
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Its all going to make for a hell of a court case some day. Perhaps 30 years down the line a little compensation might even be paid. "The system works!" civil society will cry, even as they bitterly bemoan that such unworthy scroungers and idlers are getting a cent of taxpayers' money.

Y'all are going to pay one way or the other so why not get on the right side of history for once.
 
Yes, we do. But since Antifa has a bit of the "anonymous" issue per your earlier point (different people mean different things when they say it/claim it) I don't know what you'd be willing to count. But we do have specific examples of people self-claiming to be "Antifa" doing these things.
Instead of worrying about what you think I'll consider valid or not, maybe just provide some examples! Debate or no debate, can't debate them without them ;)

If the examples aren't actually "antifa", it's important. If they are, it's also important! You already made the claim.

EDIT

More precisely, there are several.
See this, for instance:
http://treaties.un.org/doc/db/Terrorism/english-18-11.pdf
Missed this, sorry. Doesn't actually include a definition that I could get through either skimming or by searching by word (literally, "terrorism". Several matches, linked to no definition, simply used as a noun in its own right).

My point stands, there is no agreed definition in terms of the international community. The general definition varies, and the powers anti-terrorist acts grant the government of any specific country also vary. Which means if we want to debate the meaning of it, instead of resorting to legal vs. illegal (which, as I mentioned in a previous post, isn't helpful in this context), we should go to the morality of "is opposing fascism bad".

Ideally without any "but there are allegedly bad people doing bad things in its name", as that's a separate discussion track. Which I'm also replying to asking for examples of from other posters, I know. I'm just trying to debate one issue at a time, and as usual failing miserably :D

Personally I feel the phrase "antifa" has been so effectively weaponised it's hard to actually convince people of the legitimacy of anti-fascism as an ideology. I also think a lot of people distract from the basic question of "is opposing fascism bad" (with examples like "but they're violent") - speaking generally here, this isn't my first time or forum debating this - because it's uncomfortable to both admit that anti-fascist activists might be necessary, and / or personally inconvenient to recognise the growing grassroots fascist movements worldwide and also in particular governments, also worldwide.
 
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I have a strange feeling of déjà-vu. They must have changed something...

I did address why I brought this back up in the OP. In my defense I do not and will not support Antifa (America) yet, but I will gladly if this crap continues.

Yes, they are a terror/hate group. Good luck getting the "politically unmotivated" Southern Poverty Law Center to recognize them as such.

No. Just no. SPLC is not going to recognize Antifa as a hate group because what they hate is hate. Que up the nazi complaining about the lack of tolerance from Captain America now please.

@Broken_Erika Soccer Hooligans are worse then terrorists - their rampaging does not even serve any purpose.

On the subject of concentration camps: even the most liberal of countries have facilities where persons who have applied for asylum are being detained while their application is being reviewed. Whether or not they can be called concentration camps depends on their size and living conditions, I guess... but they exist. Simply closing them down does not seem like a particularly well thought out solution.

We used ankle bracelets before this which is much more humane way of handling the problem. Even more humane would be addressing the problem with the nations that are producing these asylum seekers in such numbers. Preferably without violence.

Which is how so many people end up in literal cages for months pooping on themselves. The facilities now being run like concentration camps were built up under Obama with great fanfare for the purpose of very short-duration stays while people were processed and then sent on buses to join their families and friends in the US. Despite all the cries of tyranny and ignoring conservatives, Obama acted on the push from the population and the GOP for tougher borders by trying to build up the facilities to handle migrants within the rule of law to speed up the process and make the border harder to penetrate and asylum harder to obtain. What changed and made the system begin to collapse was new guidelines from Trump which do not allow anyone to be released - the intent being to be so cruel as to discourage migration in the first place which has warped into a repeat of our WWII and wild west-era internment tactics.

Another major issue which started under Obama is that the CBP is advertised to job-seekers as a Seal Team Six sort of job for people who wanted to catch terrorists and drug smugglers while at the same time it was dramatically expanded (by like 50% in a few years or something similarly crazy). While the CBP does stop terrorists and drug runners, most of the job is taking care of desperate people who are looking for CBP to surrender to in order to claim asylum. The job needs humanitarian-minded people but wound up with a bunch of Rambo wannabes that quickly burned out but not until after taking out their pent up aggression on very desperate, ragged refugees. CBP essentially self-radicalized - all of the problems pointed out about police forces in this country are taken to an extreme in the CBP and ICE due mainly to the types of people it has recruited who bring a lot of aggression, racism and mental baggage with them to a job where they're given a badge, a gun and a lot of autonomy and authority. Meanwhile, in response to the inhumane conditions that migrants are being put through, more people have rushed the border in hopes of crossing before things get even worse which is completely counter-intuitive.

Unsurprisingly, CBP has lost around 2,000 employees (about a dozen a week) even as Trump campaigned on hiring 5,000 more officers. The whole system was rotting before Trump took over but now that depravity has become the point of the exercise, the rot has consumed the entire crop.

NPR had a great segment on the recent history of BCP if anyone is interested.

https://www.npr.org/2019/07/18/7430...ption-dysfunction-at-border-protection-agency

Nailed it Hobbs, nice citation for your point too I want to say. . .
 
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If you don't like being accused of having ulterior motives Manfred perhaps you shouldn't make it as obvious as you have.

I mean, I'd love to know what "ulterior motives" you actually think could be coming into play here. What devious plans I hope to put into action by disagreeing with someone on the internet about which bad thing is the worse bad thing. Apparently disagreeing with you is some sort of Machiavellian plan to achieve... something or other? Not quite sure how you can be throwing words like "delusional" around with that level of paranoia going on. And also again I have to remind you about your commitment to "good faith" argumentation which, well, doesn't seem very committed.
 
They're not a danger after they're caught. But before they're caught, they're a considerable danger to society.

Again, as I said before, we're obviously meaning different things here. Serial killers have not, and never will, cause any significant harm to society at large. The vast majority of people don't lay awake at night fearing they will become the victim of a serial killer. Most people don't give serial killers much thought at all, other than if they want some late night TV entertainment. You might as well say that venetian blinds are a considerable danger to society because 15 people manage to strangle themselves to death with them each year.
 
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