April 2021 Developer Livestream Discussion

nzcamel

Nahtanoj the Magnificent
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You're correct, I wouldn't blame Carl for not attaining something that is not possible but I just felt it was incongruent for him to emphasise that the balance changes took into consideration the multiplayer and singleplayer experience. In my mind were remarks from Potato McWhiskey who in his review of the April update video emphasised that Carl had reached out to him (and presumably other Civ content creators) in recent months. McWhiskey did so as a way of commending Carl on doing due diligence and noting Carl as a Civ gamer in addition to designer. I'd have figured a Civ gamer would be aware of how CPL approached the imbalances (an approach I don't like but whose existence is evidence of the lack of balance inherent to the games design of Civs)

I like Potato McWhiskey, but I don't agree with some of the suggestions he has made that Firaxis seemed encouraged to act upon. Certainly yield creep seemed something he cheered on, and I don't think it improved the game myself. I'm open to being told I'm wrong on that if someone has played the devil's advocate both ways on this topic. I think the streamers are excellent resources for the Civ community, but Firaxis needs to keep in mind that they have a different goal to the devs.

Yeah maybe I want something from Civ that it cannot offer. I've been getting into Twilight Imperium. Its a really different take on 4X which I don't know could translate to a video game of a historical development genre of Civ. But the way in which its factions are very distinct while also remaining viable in competitive play is something I wish that Civ strived for a bit

Well balance issues raised their heads in TI4 also, even if voices didn't get as heated and it's much harder to patch a board game. Some of the additions in the new expansion were designed to shore up some of the races people were concerned were a bit weak from what I remember reading. I guess that makes the Winnu into the Georgia of TI4...

There will be always balance problems in a game with asymmetrical fractions. It is only a matter of time to find it ;) But asymmetrical fractions are fun and balance is not always the aim - Root. This is also a Civ dilemma. Do you want fun or balance? I prefer fun in Civilization.

Given 90% of Civ players only play SP; and only 1 in 500 boardgames will be released with SP as the main focus, it's a bit unfair to compare the two platforms. You do have to get any asymmetrical balance in board games down really well, as not only can you not patch anywhere near as easily as you can a computer game (LOL); but the smaller player count that most BG's have compared to what Civ can do means that asymmetrical advantages are more impactful. And of course even a game as heavy as TI doesn't have the depth of Civilization. Board games don't have the luxury of going as all out as computer games do, as not only do the players have to play the game, but manage all the moving parts too.

All and all I think one is always best enjoying boardgames for the usually very different experience they offer compared to computer games even in similar genres, and vise versa.

I do want both fun and balance, but I accept that will never be perfected.

Spain got a big overhaul as we know, but the geothermal fissure start bias is interesting bc 1. I literally do not ever think of geothermal fissures in relation to Spain like yes there's volcanos in the Canaries other than that... and 2. Spain is oddly pushed more towards a science victory? Before they had an inclination towards science since you get the beefiest missions by putting them next to campuses and holy sites, but now you'll have a start bias towards geothermal vents (as well mountains by extension) PLUS you build more campuses on different continents faster on top of your mission bonuses. I guess it makes sense gameplay wise - you need good science to hit caravels and astronomy and whatever - but thematically it feels off bc Spain isn't ever considered "scientific." Cultural, economic, military, religious, yes - but science? Not really.

Also I had completely forgot about Poland until they mentioned them and then when they described the change to Poland I went from forgetful to entirely puzzled at their logic

Pretty sure that's because while mountains are all over the map, geothermal vents are more likely to appear on a faultline (read continental divide :p ).
 
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hhhhhh

Prince
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because who honestly even cares about culture bombs?

I do. Under the right circumstance I gain about 50 tiles from culture bombs (that's like saving 5000 gold, and you take tiles from others). I'm playing a game with the BBG mod where Korean's Seowon, which can only be built on hills, gives culture bomb. And I plan carefully so every campus bomb 3-5 tiles for me. It's simply huge.

For Poland you won't build as much encampments but you can use forts. I understand why some people don't care. Basically the more careful you play, the more awesome it is.
 

kaspergm

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I liked some of the changes, but have to wonder at some of the choices... (buffing Korea and Aztec further? Why???)
As for the Aztecs ... well, people have been complaining for ages that their UB is worthless, so I guess that's the answer to why they changed it.

As for Korea, the buff makes sense in terms of making the more interesting to play, but I would have liked a complete rework of the Seowon to go with it, because it's both pretty OP and quite boring to use. I guess something like adjacency bonus from mines and farms would make it a lot like the Observatory, but at least it would be more interesting and would be synergetic with the farms and mines bonus.

Overall, I think the patch is solid. I'm pleased with the free builder for Maya, that was high on my wish list. Changes to Spain and Russia are also welcome. Kind of disappointed that Babylon got not hit (hard) with the nerf hammer - yeah, it was a fun gimmick, but now please remove - and kind of puzzled that Russia and particularly Netherlands LA didn't get a bump up, because particularly Netherlands "Radio Orange" ability is meme quality.
 

Noble Zarkon

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This is a substantial update that we are waiting for so long. Maybe some of you just set the expectations or probably expected a "rework" of civs instead of "balance pass". For me, balance pass is just tweaking numbers, which Firaxis did.
It's turning out about how I expected though. Several civs got moderate updates and a lot got small touch-ups. So I am satisfied.
I agree with both of these points, very happy with what we have seen so far and looking for some more tweaks today.

Definitely true, but it wasn't really right of the developers to show such major changes in the pre-update video and make us think we had similar things to look forward to when the patch dropped.
I don't know why you would think that - the video was clearly highlighting the major changes, if there had been any other reworks they would have been in the video!

With Sumeria, Scythia, the Aztecs, and Korea, the changes didn't seem focused on stregthening, so much as enhancing.
As for the Aztecs ... well, people have been complaining for ages that their UB is worthless, so I guess that's the answer to why they changed it.
Exactly.

I'm playing a game with the BBG mod where Korean's Seowon, which can only be built on hills, gives culture bomb.
The MP community compains about balance then makes crazy changes like this lol :crazyeye:

I think the streamers are excellent resources for the Civ community, but Firaxis needs to keep in mind that they have a different goal to the devs.
Not just that they all play on Deity which less than 10% of players have won a single game on. As they said in the stream they need to focus on the even levels (Prince / King), tbh I think they listen too much to the streamers and MP guys who are not at all typical of the playing community.
 

Linklite

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So you have already seen the full patch notes and know there are no changes to those civs?
No, and to be fair there is some wriggle room for those to have received reworks, but it's doubtful given how well received some civs would have been to have had reworks while some of the ones they mentioned were less exciting. It's like bragging about you Ford while your Lambo is sitting in the garage. There might be some good reworks and it's not over until Firaxis sings, but I'm not hopeful.
 
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Is no one upset or concerned about Mali? Seems to me Spain and Portugal are so strong with trade routes with no crippling Malus that Mansa Musa has. I haven't run the numbers, but I'm willing to bet they can pull in near the gpt Mansa Musa can, not to mention other yields. You can say they are map dependent, but so is Mansa Musa.

Portugal can be very crippled on the wrong map, and Spain trade route bonuses do not scale in anyway (so the yields are strong in the beginning, but more meaningless at the end).
So for me it's more :
  • Portugal : hit-or-miss. The right map, you'll shine; the wrong one, you have no way to be competitive.
  • Mali : bonuses less impactful than Portugal, but maluses much more manageable no matter the map.
  • Spain : their trade route yields are no matchs for Mali or Portugal and they have no way to have more trade routes, so good bonuses without anything more
 

Mtgkuvalda

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What a disgusting historical experience playing for Gaul! It turns out, according to the logic of the game, they fought with Rome with these brontosaurs. I think for the guys-with-arms, a civic would be great instead of a technology. Feudalism is an excellent candidate. It would also add an interesting opportunity to play well for a cultural civilization.
The line infantry is superior to any unit of its era. If you put it in the rifling, while removing the need for ballistics to open it, you would get what you need. That is, this technology is still required for the discovery of oil and steel, but now it ceases to be the most useless science in the game (previously, the exit to rifling was just so simple, you could even play Rangers if you wanted, especially a shame for Scotland). Not to mention the fact that the design looks very terrible, giving a unit with rifles without opening the rifles themselves.
I also completely dislike the +3 buffs for unique units. It's clear that this is for greater resistance to the next generation of units of this class, but gods, how broken it is in its era for these militaristic civilizations! Hypaspists, janissaries, conquistadors will pass through you like a knife through butter.
Georgia was very wrong to remove the bonus for the protectorate war, along with the new buff, a rare, but very meaningful and beautiful addition to the faith would have turned out. The change for Gilgamesh is like finding Finn's spear in an instant, since this guy automatically makes friends with anyone who offers it. And the crazy Scythia became even stronger. With the increase in gold for the mounds, it would ideally suit such a nerf: an additional light cavalry unit is given by the previous era. Even the horseman pair has a great barbarian horseman. If you want-upgrade them for gold, if you want-use them as a backup, with +5 for a wounded unit, this is also not bad. I did so in the editor for my game.
 
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Mtgkuvalda

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Kind of disappointed that Babylon got not hit (hard) with the nerf hammer - yeah, it was a fun gimmick, but now please remove.
The main reason for the disconcerting power of Babylon is in the poorly designed eureka games. I still see that mass production requires 1 sawmill, although this was only relevant when it was in technology with crossbows. Why not make 3 or 4 sawmills already? Key technologies such as apprenticeship, machinery, and metal casting industrialization are achieved in a frustratingly simple way. Now Hammurabi will sweep away everything in the world with guys-with-hands... This is just nonsense. It's good that the game editor is so simple, I'm beaming with happiness, because it's quite easy to write your own patch and remove all the annoying miscalculations of the game.
 

King of Prussia

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Overall i like the changes. I understand the change to korea, but they will still be on my blacklist.(they arent fun to play or play against.) The changes to Kongo and russia will take them off the blacklist, at least for one game to see how it goes. I got tired of them eating all the GW super easy and fast.

I have shaka in all of my games, as i enjoy their music and their aggressiveness. This buff should make them more fun to face.

Looking forward to seeing what else is in the patch. Not sure who i will play first. None of my past spain games were all that fun, so maybe new spain will be.
 

EarendilTheMariner

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Mar 18, 2021
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I come from the future, I have seen the patch notes.

The Netherlands now gets +5 Culture and +100 loyalty from Radio Oranje
Scotland has been removed from the game for balance reasons
Food from terrace farms has been doubled
Arabia now immediately gets a great prophet at the start of the game
Harald Hardrada now has a built in hostility towards England
France's AI is now much more willing to surrender
 

Maximo the Xth

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Overall i like the changes. I understand the change to korea, but they will still be on my blacklist.(they arent fun to play or play against.) The changes to Kongo and russia will take them off the blacklist, at least for one game to see how it goes. I got tired of them eating all the GW super easy and fast.

I wouldn't get my hopes up too high for Russia and their writers. A shrine is built very easily and in yesterday's stream they've already had three idle writers standing around at turn 95 (timestamp 53:30)
 

Elhoim

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Spain got a big overhaul as we know, but the geothermal fissure start bias is interesting bc 1. I literally do not ever think of geothermal fissures in relation to Spain...

It was mostly because they spawn on the mountains that divide continents, so they used that to make Spain spawn next to another continent, not because of the geothermal fissure itself. Basically, they didn't have a code for "spawns in continent divide" and use the geothermal one as a way to get that.
 

Tigranes

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