Are smokers an unrightfully persecuted minority?

[Terxpahseyton]

Here is how it looks to me.

Smokers takes less money out of health care because the years when it is gets really expensive are the years when people are old which are the years when smokers are dead.

Smokers take less money out of pension funds because they are dead.

Vanderbilt University economist Kip Viscusi studied the net costs of smoking-related spending and savings and found that for every pack of cigarettes smoked, the country reaps a net cost savings of 32 cents.

http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/news/health/2009-04-08-fda-tobacco-costs_N.htm

Yet when I googled for this source I also read that there are at least plans that obamacare wants premiums for being a smoker? Hello???

Not that smokers wouldn't already pay a huge ass premium. By paying huge ass prices for every pack of cigarettes.

A former German minister of health once openly stated, that the reason the taxes on cigarettes went up steadily but slowly was because otherwise there would be a part of the federal budget missing...

Is that just? Right?
Or are smokers just oh so convenient to oppress and rip them off their money?

 

[Synobun]

Perhaps smokers will stop being oppressed when they stop oppressing those around them.

(I'm a real big fan of the recent trope of throwing "oppress" into daily conversation, makes social justice fun)

 

[Terxpahseyton]

Chill coolio, that was just setting the stage by positioning the two extreme positions on either side. And the title is sensational attention-seeking. Scold me for that if you want.

 

[AdamCrock]

Smokers take less money out of pension funds because they are dead.

I am a smoker and what You have said is true. But it's not only true to a smoker. It would be good thing for (any and all) government if the people die before they are eligible for their pensions anyway. Smokers just make it easier for governments and I presume that is why smoking is legal (and only because of that really) Being a smoker means a massive health damage , probably more damage than grass would/will ever do imho

 

[El_Machinae]

We're getting to the stage, yes, where the persecution might be going too far. That said, I sincerely doubt that smokers are a net savings when it comes to medicare and social security. Social Security gets complicated really, really quickly, but medicare tends to overspend at the 'end' of your life, whether it's at 70 or 80, it's really expensive.

That said, I think there's commonly an important metric missed. I betcha the 70 year old dying in 2014 is vastly cheaper than the 80 year old dying in 2024. Even if the 80 year old is not vastly more expensive in 2014 than the 70 year old is.

 

[Terxpahseyton]

probably more damage than grass would/will ever do imho

In terms of physical health that is not a thing of probability but certainty. Many drugs do less to your body than smoking (or alcohol for that matter).

 

[Terxpahseyton]

That said, I sincerely doubt that smokers are a net savings when it comes to medicare and social security. Social Security gets complicated really, really quickly, but medicare tends to overspend at the 'end' of your life, whether it's at 70 or 80, it's really expensive.

I have missed your actual reason why you have doubts.

 

[Phrossack]

People oughtn't be rude or condescending towards people who smoke, which is unfortunately sometimes the case. Likewise, those who smoke should respect the right to clean, healthy air of others.

But "persecuted" is a strong word; it better describes 15th and 16th century Spanish policies towards Jews and Muslims than modern Western attitudes towards smokers.

 

[warpus]

They're persecuted? They are legally able to consume their drug of choice.

Ask your average heroin, cocaine, or marijuana user how they'd feel if they were able to use without having to worry about being busted by the cops.

Nah man, nicotine and alcohol users are looked after well in our society. They can walk into a corner store and buy the drug that keeps them ticking. How easy is that?? Any other addict has to turn to the black market, aside from marijuana users in states like Colorado I suppose.

Smokers have it good man, society accepts their vice as something that's normal and legal. Sure, there are restrictions in place, but they make perfect sense: go use your drug somewhere in private where you aren't bothering people who do not want to participate. All other drug users already have to do this. With alcohol it's easy because people generally don't run around and pour beer into the mouths of people who don't drink alcohol.

As for the whole healthcare thing, smoking is unhealthy.. obviously it's going to on average cause you to die faster, that's what unhealthy things tend to do. Doing certain unhealthy things drives up premiums. Heck, I get higher insurance premium just because I'm a guy. I can't change that! You're lucky, you can at least change your habits. I could get an operation but I like my manly physique.

Take everything I've written with a grain of salt, because it's happy hour. I have very little emotional interest in this debate, I just like yelling at smokers because they think it's okay to litter for some reason and sometimes blow smoke in my face. I don't care what they do as long as they stop doing those 2 things, really. And if there really is discrimination here, I'd actually support them.

My roommate is a smoker, the only time we ever got into an argument about it was when I told him that no, it's not okay to just drop the butt on the ground on the front lawn. How rude to assume that that's perfectly acceptable? And eventually he was all "alright, that's cool, whatever", and now there's always an ashtray there. People doing drugs is fine, as long as it doesn't negatively affect others. As long as you make sure of that, do whatever you want. Just realize that it's a vice, isn't good for you, and has consequences like maybe health problems 30 years from now, or a higher cost of living and maintaining your lifestyle.

 

[El_Machinae]

I have missed your actual reason why you have doubts.

Mainly because this is not the first time we've seen such studies. Inevitably, they need to get nit-picked due to decreased performance* of smokers and their longer/greater medical costs. Let's just say I'm waiting for a consensus amongst the experts instead of just the occasional study.

That said, I've not seen one of these analyses that factor in my criticism above (that medical costs are rising at over 8% per year, which makes earlier 'drains' cheaper than later drains). But, the simple idea "let old people die when they stop working" is, intuitively, cheaper when you're in a welfare state.

*I'm not of the school that we're 'owed' performance from smokers, and their SS checks already reflect their worklife output (if I understand correctly).

IMO, we've essentially won the "2nd hand smoke" war, with a few exceptional individuals not yet accounted for, with their allergies. The 2nd hand smoke mostly justified the 'push back' against smokers. We've won.

 

[Terxpahseyton]

As for the whole healthcare thing, smoking is unhealthy.. obviously it's going to on average cause you to die faster, that's what unhealthy things tend to do. Doing certain unhealthy things drives up premiums.

I don't think you even try to make sense... And yeez yes "persecuted" is a strong word. Get over it people. The topic is not the wording of the title or whatever wording. The topic is what smokers have to endure and how just that is.

 

[Core Imposter]

It hasn't a thing to do with health or costs. Its all about political power.

Blacks versus whites. Men versus women. Business versus labor. Smokers versus non-smokers. Nutri-fascists versus Big Gulpers. Ad nauseam.

Its a simple divide and conquer strategy effectively wielded by the global elites as they march to world dominion. To one extent or another we are all unrightfully persecuted minorities?

Liberty wanes.

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

I think it's incomplete to merely look at the cost-benefit picture. I reject that in other areas, so here as well. It does come into play though when people opt they are financing my slow suicide as they tend to call it.

Don't know how it's like in America or other places, but around here people are pretty non-observant about it. Usually isn't an issue at all.

We've won.

And in about all cases rightfully so.

Except for my pet-peeve bars and concert halls. But I'm not going to go into that one again.

 

[Terxpahseyton]

they need to get nit-picked due to decreased performance* of smokers

Nicotine stimulates the brain. As Stephen King said (paraphrasing) "The smoker is the better writer. He is also the one who dies earlier". No seriously, it improves memory etcetera, Though I admit that on the long run it damages the brain for the smokes effect on the blood flow.

But in terms of health care premiums that is irrelevant of course.
Unless we are now discussing health care premiums based on how activities effect ones economic performance.

I have very little emotional interest in this debate

Because of your sub-conscious stigmatization of smokers I bet

 

[AdamCrock]

We're getting to the stage, yes, where the persecution might be going too far. That said, I sincerely doubt that smokers are a net savings when it comes to medicare and social security. Social Security gets complicated really, really quickly, but medicare tends to overspend at the 'end' of your life, whether it's at 70 or 80, it's really expensive.

That said, I think there's commonly an important metric missed. I betcha the 70 year old dying in 2014 is vastly cheaper than the 80 year old dying in 2024. Even if the 80 year old is not vastly more expensive in 2014 than the 70 year old is.

Do not forget the massive (nearly overwhelming to any home budget) tariffs that smokers need to pay to satiate their "thirst" And government is just cashing in

IMHO they should revise the term "Banana Republic" to "Tobacco Rebublic" at some point

 

[Terxpahseyton]

Don't know how it's like in America or other places, but around here people are pretty non-observant about it. Usually isn't an issue at all.

My personal issue are solely the taxes on cigarettes.
The health care thing thou inspired this thread because I read elsewhere on this forum that smokers would be more expensive for the society. And that got my blood vessel really flowing.

 

[Tahuti]

It wouldn't surprise me to learn that measures the government takes against smokers cost more than smoking itself when unrestrained.

If you smoke, it is your choice and you take full responsibility for its health effects. It also your choice to hang around with smokers, so no one should moan about 'co-smoking'.

 

[warpus]

@Terxpahseyton Let me put it this way:

You seem to be arguing in your OP that smokers shouldn't be paying more in insurance premiums, because they die earlier, and dying earlier means that you're less of a drain on the system.

By that argument any reason insurance companies use to raise your rates based on your health shouldn't be allowed, because anything unhealthy you do shortens your lifespan and reduces your drain on the system.

Following the logic you have to conclude that people who lead unhealthy lives should be rewarded with lower rates, because they are less of a drain on the system. So if you smoke and drink and basejump for a living, your health and life insurance rates should be the lowest possible, meanwhile healthcare for people who stay in shape and are fit should be sky high because these people are going to live really damn long and take up a lot of resources when they're old and are lying around crapping into diapers.

First of all data seems to suggest that you're completely incorrect.. but also, that conclusion is really silly, so I am in the "you're wrong" camp.

My previous post was mostly a rant about smoking in general that you can mostly disregard due to happy hour.

Because of your sub-conscious stigmatization of smokers I bet

Hate the smoke, not the smoker. Addiction is not a laughing matter, I'm not going to hate an addict. But I might strongly disapprove of certain things they do that affect me directly or indirectly.

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

And that got my blood vessel really flowing.

It's healthy to get your blood flowing. So it all evens out in the end.

 

[JollyRoger]

Smoking is a deviant lifestyle choice.