Ask A Bulgarian

No, the default portrait wouldn't do it justice. Too dark.

It'd be best if you make a mix: use Greek clothes but base the faces closer to Russians. Mind giving me a sample of Russian portraits?

Russian portraits are third row down (as a side note I believe the Russian portraits are used for the Bulgarians in vanilla CKII):
Spoiler :
l0ea38Z.jpg


Alternatively, would the greek portraits work if they were paler?

Lastly, one other option for me would be to use a steppe look one guy made a while back, which is based on the default western portraits but gave them some facial features of the Mongolian portrait set (you can ignore the clothing and hair).

Spoiler :
oRWks55.jpg


So, basically, to recap, the options I'm considering ( for the basic facial features) are:
1. Greeks
2. Paler Greeks
3. Russian
4. Steppe
 
The Steppe one looks pretty great! Although, is there any way for the portraits to change over time in ethnicity? I mean, slowly, the pre-Bulgarians were assimilated, which means that at some point, the portraits would be inaccurate, and they should be replaced with ones more Slavic-looking. Alternatively, is there a way to have multiple portrait types for one nation? For an example, if the start date is somewhere 'round 700-800s, you'll need both the Steppe and the Russian portraits if you want it to be accurate. After 1000s, you can safely use the Russian portraits.
 
The Steppe one looks pretty great! Although, is there any way for the portraits to change over time in ethnicity? I mean, slowly, the pre-Bulgarians were assimilated, which means that at some point, the portraits would be inaccurate, and they should be replaced with ones more Slavic-looking. Alternatively, is there a way to have multiple portrait types for one nation? For an example, if the start date is somewhere 'round 700-800s, you'll need both the Steppe and the Russian portraits if you want it to be accurate. After 1000s, you can safely use the Russian portraits.

Unfortunately you can't really change the appearance of a culture over time - you can change their clothing and hair, but not their basic appearance, unless you want weird stuff like everybody suddenly undergoing plastic face surgery in 950. Though even then it's limited, if you define a change it will happen exactly in 950 when everyone magically changes. And you can't have multiple looks per culture either without some really roundabout methods that aren't worth the effort. So in terms of facial appearance, it would have to be something that ideally works for the entire span of the game.

For what its worth, there is a Bolghar culture in CKII that's separate from Bulgarian. It includes the Volga Bulgarians, as well as the early Bulgarian Khans like Krum. Currently I'm using the steppe portraits for this Bolghar culture (among a few other steppe cultures).
 
Unfortunately you can't really change the appearance of a culture over time - you can change their clothing and hair, but not their basic appearance, unless you want weird stuff like everybody suddenly undergoing plastic face surgery in 950. Though even then it's limited, if you define a change it will happen exactly in 950 when everyone magically changes. And you can't have multiple looks per culture either without some really roundabout methods that aren't worth the effort. So in terms of facial appearance, it would have to be something that ideally works for the entire span of the game.

For what its worth, there is a Bolghar culture in CKII that's separate from Bulgarian. It includes the Volga Bulgarians, as well as the early Bulgarian Khans like Krum. Currently I'm using the steppe portraits for this Bolghar culture (among a few other steppe cultures).

Well, could separate characters have a different culture, and yet be under one heading? If that makes sense. For an example, the Khan could be with a Bulgar portrait, but he could have thousands of Slavic princes 'running around.
 
Maybe this can help - Bulgarians compared to other populations:

https://genographic.nationalgeographic.com/reference-populations/

https://genographic.nationalgeographic.com/regions/

Modern day indigenous populations around the world carry particular blends of nine regional affiliations:

Using a method of analysis that infers ancestral source populations, we have discovered nine ancestral regions that combine to make up everyone’s genome. Everyone has a mix of these components ranging from 0% to 100% due to interaction between these regions of the world over the past 50,000 years. Native Americans have their own group, as do Oceanians and the Khoisan people of southern Africa. In these places it is possible to have 100% of the respective region. Everyone else in the world is a mix of these components, reflecting ancient and modern migration patterns.

Northeast Asian: This component is found at highest frequencies in the populations of northeast Asia—people from Japan, China and Mongolia in our reference populations. It is also found at lower frequencies in southeast Asia and India, where it likely arrived in the past 10,000 years with the expansion of rice farmers coming from further north. Interestingly, it is also found at a frequency of 5-10% in the Finns, likely introduced by the migrations of the Saami people from Siberia into Finland over the past 5,000 years.

Mediterranean: This component is found at highest frequencies in southern Europe and the Levant—people from Sardinia, Italy, Greece, Lebanon, Egypt and Tunisia in our reference populations. While not limited to these groups, it is found at lower frequencies throughout the rest of Europe, the Middle East, Central and South Asia, due to these populations traveling through this region on their journeys and retaining that in their DNA. This component is likely the signal of the Neolithic population expansion from the Middle East, beginning around 8,000 years ago, likely from the western part of the Fertile Crescent.

Southern African: This component is found at highest frequency in the Khoisan people of southern Africa—the famous ‘Bushmen of the Kalahari.’ It likely represents the earliest split in the human population in Africa, before we left to colonize the rest of the world, more than 100,000 years ago. These early southern Africans were once more widespread, accounting for the low frequency of this component in other African populations.

Southwest Asian: This component is found at highest frequencies in India and neighboring populations, including Tajikistan and Iran in our reference dataset. It is also found at lower frequencies in Europe and North Africa. As with the Mediterranean component, it was likely spread during the Neolithic expansion, perhaps from the eastern part of the Fertile Crescent. Individuals with heavy European influence in their ancestry will show traces of this because all Europeans have mixed with people from Southwest Asia over tens of thousands of years.

Native American: This component is found at highest frequency in the populations of the Americas. It represents the signal of the original settlers of North and South America who arrived via the Bering land bridge between 15-20,000 years ago. Interestingly, the only other place in the world where it is found—at frequencies of 2-3%—is in central Siberia and Mongolia, the likely place of origin of the first Native Americans.

Oceanian: This component is found at highest frequencies in Near Oceania—people from Papua New Guinea and Melanesia in our reference populations. It is also found at much lower, but still detectable, frequency in populations from eastern India, reflecting a small degree of migration between these regions. It is likely a signal of the earliest coastal migrants to Near Oceania, who arrived in the region around 50,000 years ago.

Southeast Asian: This component is found at highest frequencies in the populations of southeast Asia and India, particularly in the northeast Indian and Vietnamese populations in our reference set. It is also found at lower frequency in populations from Oceania, where it persists as a signal of the Austronesian migrations into the region beginning ~5,000 years ago—a migration that would eventually colonize Polynesia. Interestingly, it is also found in the population of Madagascar, brought there by the seafaring Austronesians around 2,000 years ago.

Northern European: This component is found at highest frequency in northern European populations—people from the UK, Denmark, Finland, Russia and Germany in our reference populations. While not limited to these groups, it is found at lower frequencies throughout the rest of Europe. This component is likely the signal of the earliest hunter-gatherer inhabitants of Europe, who were the last to make the transition to agriculture as it moved in from the Middle East during the Neolithic period around 8,000 years ago.

Sub-Saharan African: This component is found at highest frequency in the people of sub-Saharan Africa, particularly among those speaking Bantu languages such as the Yoruba and Luhya in our reference populations. It likely represents a signal of the original inhabitants of eastern and central Africa, and was spread in part due to the migrations of the Bantu speakers throughout Africa in the past 2,500 years. It is also found at lower frequencies north of the Sahara, in populations such as the Tunisians and Egyptians.
Bulgarians:
populations_Bulgarian_575.png


Compared to other reference populations:
populations_Russians_575.png

populations_Finnish_575.png

populations_Greek_575.png

populations_Lebanese_5751.png

populations_Egyptian_575.png

populations_Iranian_575.png

populations_Western-Indian_575.png

populations_Mongolian_575.png

populations_Altaian_575.png

populations_Tatar_575.png

populations_Chinese_575.png
 
I have been to Bulgaria four times on skiing trips in Macedonia (Bansko) and have also visited Sofia. I would really like to visit Bansko and the Pirin Mountains in the summer as it looks beautiful on Google maps.

I guess this is as much an observation as it is a question. Compared with your Hellenic neighbours most Bulgarians I met (not all) seemed stoic, stern and didn't smile very much. Most Greeks (not all) I met seem, in comparison, seem to be very warm, smiley and welcoming. I know this is a generalization but could you shed any light on this difference in character?

As I said above, I loved Bansko and had a great time, so much that I went back year after year, and I certainly don't intend to cause any offence, I'm just curious as to why the macho front.
 
But what use is it?

As you can see according to that website human autosomal genes can be divided into groups of nine affiliations. There was a debate here on whether Bulgarians should look like Greeks, like Russians, or like Turkic steppe nomads. I posted this data which shows that Bulgarians are genetically intermediate between these populations (which is in agreement with their demographic history in which migrations from the north and from the east intermingled with local populations). So Bulgarians look neither like Greeks, nor like Russians, nor like steppe nomads. However, it seems that of these populations, they most closely resemble Greeks.
 
I see. So if I want to see how closely British and German people resemble each other, I look at this?

populations_German_575.png


populations_British_575.png


Even though there's how many Polish people in the UK?

This still has me scratching my head, wondering.
 
Even your kings and queens are Germans. Which applied to pre-Communist Bulgaria IIRC. Did it, Tolnie? Are there any remnants of the old (pre-Communist) Bulgarian royal and noble families?
 
Ekhm - the 9 principal components that they distinguished are:

Northeast Asian
Mediterranean
Southern African
Southwest Asian
Native American
Oceanian
Southeast Asian
Northern European
Sub-Saharan African

Neither "Central" nor "Eastern" Euro components were distinguished. Of course these names are conventional. Component named "Northern European" is most numerous also in Central and North-Eastern Europe.

Even though there's how many Polish people in the UK?

Among Poles "Northern European" component as defined by National Geographic is also most numerous.

However, if you actually read what I posted above, then you will see that this data is collected from native populations - immigrants are not included. So data for the UK doesn't include any Poles.

==================================

Of course 9 is not a fixed number, other numbers of principal components can also be used.

Here for example you have Eurogenes K=15, which uses 15 principal components (not just 9):

http://eurogenes.blogspot.com/2014/10/genetic-continuity-and-shifts-across.html

A video which shows amount of these 15 components in some ancient and modern populations:


Link to video.

And here another division - this time into 13 components (K=13):

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet...9aHzr7DLEnVq5q-wnTsfpe2a9Jg/edit?pli=1#gid=24

The 13 components used (the tree shows how 12 of them all diverged from Palaeo-African):

treemix.png


Some other data (English people have quite a lot of Southern European component according to this):

ADMIXTURE_7.png
 
I have been to Bulgaria four times on skiing trips in Macedonia (Bansko) and have also visited Sofia. I would really like to visit Bansko and the Pirin Mountains in the summer as it looks beautiful on Google maps.

I guess this is as much an observation as it is a question. Compared with your Hellenic neighbours most Bulgarians I met (not all) seemed stoic, stern and didn't smile very much. Most Greeks (not all) I met seem, in comparison, seem to be very warm, smiley and welcoming. I know this is a generalization but could you shed any light on this difference in character?

As I said above, I loved Bansko and had a great time, so much that I went back year after year, and I certainly don't intend to cause any offence, I'm just curious as to why the macho front.

Well, that could be partially accounted to the 500 years of slavery. Besides, you visited Bansko only. There's certainly a sea of difference between, say, people living in Pirin, and people living in, say, Varna.

Even your kings and queens are Germans. Which applied to pre-Communist Bulgaria IIRC. Did it, Tolnie? Are there any remnants of the old (pre-Communist) Bulgarian royal and noble families?

Damn right. Our dear government is right now trying to sue their assess off in order to gain their lands and forests, which is funny, because for a brief period of time, the successor of Boris III was our Prime Minister.

As you can see according to that website human autosomal genes can be divided into groups of nine affiliations. There was a debate here on whether Bulgarians should look like Greeks, like Russians, or like Turkic steppe nomads. I posted this data which shows that Bulgarians are genetically intermediate between these populations (which is in agreement with their demographic history in which migrations from the north and from the east intermingled with local populations). So Bulgarians look neither like Greeks, nor like Russians, nor like steppe nomads. However, it seems that of these populations, they most closely resemble Greeks.

It's an unfortunate side-effect of being located in a place which is conveniently the fastest way getting to Constantinople; be it Byzantines, that one time a Kievan Rus king decided to come over and help his Byzantine friends, Tatars, other Tatars, the Turks. And that is of course, without mentioning all the ethnicities spread around that lived in Bulgaria.

Despite what our dear nationalists have to say, until the 1800s, Bulgaria was a no-mans-land if we look at ethnicity.
 
However, it seems that of these populations, they most closely resemble Greeks.

It's an unfortunate side-effect of being located in a place which is conveniently the fastest way getting to Constantinople

But quite a lot of Bulgarians are descendants of captured Byzantines. For example those who were resettled to Bulgaria by its Khans.

According to my sources Khan Krum (802-814) captured the following Byzantine cities, from which he subsequently deported all inhabitants northward and settled them in various regions of his realm: Konstantia, Dewlet, Messembria, Teodosiopol, Adrianopol, Arkadiopol, Wukelon, Skutarion, Redestos, Burdizon, Didymoteichon, Wizye, Gariala and others. Each of those cities had been inhabited by several up to a dozen or so thousand (or even more in case of for example Adrianopol) people during peacetime. The number of prisoners amounted to many dozen thousand. In Adrianopol alone he captured probably ca. 25,000 people.

Later other Bulgar Khans carried out similar enslavement and resettlements of captured Byzantine population - those were Dicewg, Omurtag, Malamir (he captured many Greeks from northern Thrace) and finally Simeon the Great (he captured 120,000 Byzantines during his war against the Empire).

Among those Byzantines enslaved and resettled to other regions by Bulgaria, was also Basil I (that was before he became the Emperor). But Basil managed to liberate himself from captivity in years 831 - 832, during the uprising started by one group of those captured Greeks. The uprising itself was only partially successful (only part of insurgents managed to escape to the Danube Delta, from which they were evacuated by Byzantine fleet - among them was Basil).

Also many Greeks are descendants of Slavs, who had settled for example in Macedonia, Thessaly, Central Greece, the Peloponnese, Asia Minor, etc.

Some groups of migrating Slavs even established settlements and pirate bases on various Greek islands - including Crete.
 
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