Ziggy Stardust
Absolutely Sane
Religious smackdown 2011 baby yeah!
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Ask A Catholic II
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Abaddon
Deity
How does Osama's death effect Catholics?
Jehoshua
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It doesn't
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However in relating to the death of another human person it is incorrect to rejoice over the passing of another as it is the wish of God that every man repent for his sins and freely accept his grace to achieve salvation. Indeed the only real tragedy is not to become a saint.
Thus in Osama Bin Ladin's case it is a tragedy that he likely died in a state of mortal sin, and I pray that he repented with perfect contrition before he died, for no person should wish another to hell and to deny another the beatific vision.
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However in relating to the death of another human person it is incorrect to rejoice over the passing of another as it is the wish of God that every man repent for his sins and freely accept his grace to achieve salvation. Indeed the only real tragedy is not to become a saint.
Thus in Osama Bin Ladin's case it is a tragedy that he likely died in a state of mortal sin, and I pray that he repented with perfect contrition before he died, for no person should wish another to hell and to deny another the beatific vision.
Jehoshua
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To deny a certain antagonism towards protestantism is absent in the catholic community would of course be incorrect, the fundamentalist protestant attitude towards catholics {you worship Mary, your idolaters, your the anti-christ protestants}, historical persecutions and the fact that protestantism is heresy obviously open the door to unnecesary pregudices although I must say a virulent hatred of protestants on par with the rabid hatred of catholics expressed in some protestant circles from my experience is absent amongst the vast majority of Catholics (I have not met one who is rabidly anti-protestant).
Likewise focussing on scandals is an incorrect measure of a religion as it presupposes the fallible errors of man apply to the teachings of a religion. Likewise it is said that the Church is a hospital for sinners, not a club-house for saints. That applies both ways.
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However in regard to the statement that the advent of protestantism was a bad thing that is totally true from a Catholic perspective. To any sincere catholic the Catholic Church IS the ONE TRUE FAITH, the fullness of the truth resides only within the Catholic Church and any truth in other faiths is only true because it is believed by the Catholic Church. Thus the protestant heresy is a tragedy for catholics as it led many astray into error and thus grievously harmed many peoples chances for salvation in that they were deprived of the fullness of truth.
Furthermore from a purely intellectual perspective protestantism with its latent relativism (evident in the 40000 odd protestant ecclesial communities) thanks to its dismissal of legitimate apostolic authority and the doctrine of sola-scriptura which allowed for a myriad of [erroneous] interpretations could be said to have opened the flood-gates with the results emerging with the coming of the 'enlightenment' where the protestant mentality produced as a product of dismissal of authority and the preponderance of opinion based discourse, the current mentality that has corrupted much of the west duly named by the current pope the "dictatorship of relativism".
Thus considering this intellectual view and the sorrow at the consequences of heresy, it is simple to see how the advent of protestantism was a bad thing. In fact I would say it would be dishonest of any Catholic to say otherwise.
GhostWriter16
Deity
I think that it seems that Catholicism borders on worshipping Mary. I'm not 100% certain of what they do, but I know they highly venerate her, pray to her, exc. I'm not going to say that because of this Catholics aren't Christians or don't worship God, but I think there is a certain degree of idolatry here.
Now, that of course depends on how you define idolatry. I define it as putting anything, at any point, above the Lord our God. Therefore, everyone is guilty of idolatry at some point.
Do I think Catholics are guilty of idolatry the same way the pagans of Ancient Times were? No, but I do think they are too close for comfort. This does not mean Catholics are not Christian, but that they are in error.
Jehoshua
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As you have freely admitted you are ignorant of the Churches opinion of Mary then I shall enlighten you.
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Idolatry is the appropriation of divine worship to any image or thing apart from the true God.
veneration or dulia is due honour given to the sanctified, such as the Virgin Mary or the saints. It is best exemplified as great respect and is often compared to the due honour you give your elders. In catholic theology the difference between dulia and divine worship (latria) is not one merely of degree but of kind also.
This is perhaps best exemplified in prayers which correspond respectively to inteccesory prayer requesting a saint to intercede on ones behalf to God as one would ask a friend to pray for you (as the saints in heaven are more alive than we are) and one of Latria, divine worship to the triune God.
To begin the Ave Maria (in english)
Hail Mary, full of grace, the lord is with thee, blessed art though amongst women and blessed is the fruit of thy womb jesus, Holy Mary, mother of God pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our deaths, Amen.
To begin the analysis we see the first section, Hail Mary full of grace the lord is with thee, blessed art thou amongst women and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus. Here we see a salutation and acknowledge of grace given by God to mary, notice how this veneration is not praise of Mary herself of her own auto-generated virtue but of the honour and grace given to her by God and of the blessing she was given to be mother of our Lord. These phrases are also biblical being the address to Mary by the angel Gabriel and the salutation of Elizabeth her cousin respectively.
Continuing on from this we see Holy Mary, Mother of God, Pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our deaths, amen. This second section begins with another affirmation of her sanctified state and her role as mother of our Lord, and continue swith a request perfectly reasonable of any christian, to pray for us to God.
Thus this prayer to mary a perfect example of veneration (dulia) showcases the attributes of such veneration, which is that it acknowledges the God given gifts of a person as given from God, and gives due honour to the individual (this case Mary) as being blessed by God before following with a perfectly reasonable request.
Now consider latria
Glory to God in the highest,
and on earth peace to people of good will.
We praise you,
we bless you,
we adore you,
we glorify you,
we give you thanks for your great glory,
Lord God, heavenly King,
O God, almighty Father.
Lord Jesus Christ, Only Begotten Son,
Lord God, Lamb of God, Son of the Father,
you take away the sins of the world, have mercy on us;
you take away the sins of the world, receive our prayer.
you are seated at the right hand of the Father, have mercy on us.
For you alone are the Holy One, you alone are the Lord, you alone are the Most High,
Jesus Christ, with the Holy Spirit, in the glory of God the Father. Amen
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self explanatory, but to make the point it acknowledges and highlights absolute submission and adoration of the divinity and the holiness of God which is intrinsic to the divinity. We also see direct requests for mercy for our sins to God whereas of Mary as of any other saint one merely requests intercessory prayer, for them to pray for us. Thus whereas in veneration one acknowledges the blessings and grace of God given to an individual, in Latria, worship one in adoration and awe of the incomprehensibleness of God praises and acknowledges the intrinsic glory and divinie nature of God.
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This is the primary difference between veneration and worship that protestants on the whole fail to understand.
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Idolatry is the appropriation of divine worship to any image or thing apart from the true God.
veneration or dulia is due honour given to the sanctified, such as the Virgin Mary or the saints. It is best exemplified as great respect and is often compared to the due honour you give your elders. In catholic theology the difference between dulia and divine worship (latria) is not one merely of degree but of kind also.
This is perhaps best exemplified in prayers which correspond respectively to inteccesory prayer requesting a saint to intercede on ones behalf to God as one would ask a friend to pray for you (as the saints in heaven are more alive than we are) and one of Latria, divine worship to the triune God.
To begin the Ave Maria (in english)
Hail Mary, full of grace, the lord is with thee, blessed art though amongst women and blessed is the fruit of thy womb jesus, Holy Mary, mother of God pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our deaths, Amen.
To begin the analysis we see the first section, Hail Mary full of grace the lord is with thee, blessed art thou amongst women and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus. Here we see a salutation and acknowledge of grace given by God to mary, notice how this veneration is not praise of Mary herself of her own auto-generated virtue but of the honour and grace given to her by God and of the blessing she was given to be mother of our Lord. These phrases are also biblical being the address to Mary by the angel Gabriel and the salutation of Elizabeth her cousin respectively.
Continuing on from this we see Holy Mary, Mother of God, Pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our deaths, amen. This second section begins with another affirmation of her sanctified state and her role as mother of our Lord, and continue swith a request perfectly reasonable of any christian, to pray for us to God.
Thus this prayer to mary a perfect example of veneration (dulia) showcases the attributes of such veneration, which is that it acknowledges the God given gifts of a person as given from God, and gives due honour to the individual (this case Mary) as being blessed by God before following with a perfectly reasonable request.
Now consider latria
Glory to God in the highest,
and on earth peace to people of good will.
We praise you,
we bless you,
we adore you,
we glorify you,
we give you thanks for your great glory,
Lord God, heavenly King,
O God, almighty Father.
Lord Jesus Christ, Only Begotten Son,
Lord God, Lamb of God, Son of the Father,
you take away the sins of the world, have mercy on us;
you take away the sins of the world, receive our prayer.
you are seated at the right hand of the Father, have mercy on us.
For you alone are the Holy One, you alone are the Lord, you alone are the Most High,
Jesus Christ, with the Holy Spirit, in the glory of God the Father. Amen
-
self explanatory, but to make the point it acknowledges and highlights absolute submission and adoration of the divinity and the holiness of God which is intrinsic to the divinity. We also see direct requests for mercy for our sins to God whereas of Mary as of any other saint one merely requests intercessory prayer, for them to pray for us. Thus whereas in veneration one acknowledges the blessings and grace of God given to an individual, in Latria, worship one in adoration and awe of the incomprehensibleness of God praises and acknowledges the intrinsic glory and divinie nature of God.
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This is the primary difference between veneration and worship that protestants on the whole fail to understand.
GhostWriter16
Deity
I think I see a difference here, but as I said, I still think its a bad thing and putting an unnecessary amount of honor on a living person. I don't think its "Worship" in the same sense as Paganism, but I still disagree with it.
Let us see what Christ says about prayer:
When a Catholic says a "Hail Mary" over and over again, they are "Babbling like pagans." Now, does this mean they are pagan? No, it means they are acting like it. And this is wrong.
Let us see what Christ says about prayer:
When a Catholic says a "Hail Mary" over and over again, they are "Babbling like pagans." Now, does this mean they are pagan? No, it means they are acting like it. And this is wrong.
Jehoshua
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Repetitive prayer is not in any degree condemned by Christ. What Christ is condemning here is both prayer where the words or sounds of the prayer themselves are considered to have efficacy (such as a hindu Skhloka or mantra for example) and the commitment and engagement with prayer is ignored and obstentatious public fase-piety in which one acts pious to garner a good reputation or some other reward (especially considering the association of public officials with the various pagan priesthoods in the roman empire).
Thus in the context of christian repetitive prayer, such as the Pater Noster (the lords prayer) or the hail Mary a correct attitude to prayer must be maintained. That is contemplative immersion in the intention and meaning of the words, ones own prayer intentions and the understanding that the prayer itself has no power, but that God alone is the source of graces and that ultimately your prayer is a private dialogue between the individual and God. One must also in a reflective mentality focus on what the prayers words actually mean, rather than simple mindless repetition of syllables as is condemned.
Thus in the context of a repetitive sequence of prayers such as the rosary, the prayers said with a proper attitude focussing intently throughout on the mysteries of christs life (joyous mysteries, sorrowful mysteries, glorious mysteries) can take many hours as focus must be maintained on the real meaning of the prayers.
Thus in the context of christian repetitive prayer, such as the Pater Noster (the lords prayer) or the hail Mary a correct attitude to prayer must be maintained. That is contemplative immersion in the intention and meaning of the words, ones own prayer intentions and the understanding that the prayer itself has no power, but that God alone is the source of graces and that ultimately your prayer is a private dialogue between the individual and God. One must also in a reflective mentality focus on what the prayers words actually mean, rather than simple mindless repetition of syllables as is condemned.
Thus in the context of a repetitive sequence of prayers such as the rosary, the prayers said with a proper attitude focussing intently throughout on the mysteries of christs life (joyous mysteries, sorrowful mysteries, glorious mysteries) can take many hours as focus must be maintained on the real meaning of the prayers.
_random_
Jewel Runner
You have to understand that prayer is just as much for us as it is for God. If I repeat a prayer to God or a saint, I'm not expecting to be heard more, but with each word of prayer I work more to align my soul with the will of God.
Huayna Capac357
Deity
I'm not Catholic, but I think you are interpreting this wrong. This passage is against boastful, self-righteous prayers, not things like Hail Mary-s.
Praying the rosary is actually a form of meditation. For me praying the rosary calms my mind, cools my temper and keeps my desires in check. Make sure to note that this is not a centering prayer, because Mary like a good mother helps her children control themselves and act morally.
kochman
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Correct, it is even directed with "The Lord's Prayer", for example. We say the everything every time.
GhostWriter16
Deity
Mary is in Heaven praising Jesus, along with the Apostles and all the saints (Christians.) I don't even know if people up there can or do look down here, but praying to saints accomplishes nothing, as it is NEVER commanded in Scripture and is actually forbidden.
And Mary is only the mother of Christ.
That's true, but he wasn't saying "Keep repeating this prayer" he was saying "Here's an example of how prayer should look." I'm not saying reciting the Lord's Prayer is wrong, but if it becomes empty ritual, its a bad thing.
Jehoshua
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PART I
Indeed Mary is in heaven in perfect praise and adoration of the Lord along with all the others who have achieved the beatific vision. You seem to forget however that the saints in heaven are more alive than we are and by your logic if it is actually forbidden then you cannot ask anyone here on earth to pray on your behalf. It is exactly the same thing.
However unfortunately for that sorry state of affaits andf for your personal opinion the bible itself says otherwise.
Revelation 5:8 (the offering of the prayers of the saints to God)
James. 5:16 (pray for eachover, the prayers of a righteous person are powerful)
Revelation 8: 3-4 (as the other revelation passage)
and there are others
I will also make special mention of Job: 5:1 which protestants interpret against the intercession of saints and Orthodox/oriental orthodox/catholics quote in support. Naturally support goes to the Churches with apostolic succession and thus a direct connection to pentecost; even those ones schismatic from the Catholic Church founded by Christ hold to this doctrine, it is only with the 15th century and the rise of the protestant heresy that this was rejected within christendom. Before then it was universal in belief.
PART II
well since a catholic in the right state of mind (that is with attention to meaning and the intent of the prayer instead of the empty repetition you so describe) does not say prayers as empty ritual then there is no problem as you have freely admitted.
Indeed Mary is in heaven in perfect praise and adoration of the Lord along with all the others who have achieved the beatific vision. You seem to forget however that the saints in heaven are more alive than we are and by your logic if it is actually forbidden then you cannot ask anyone here on earth to pray on your behalf. It is exactly the same thing.
However unfortunately for that sorry state of affaits andf for your personal opinion the bible itself says otherwise.
Revelation 5:8 (the offering of the prayers of the saints to God)
James. 5:16 (pray for eachover, the prayers of a righteous person are powerful)
Revelation 8: 3-4 (as the other revelation passage)
and there are others
I will also make special mention of Job: 5:1 which protestants interpret against the intercession of saints and Orthodox/oriental orthodox/catholics quote in support. Naturally support goes to the Churches with apostolic succession and thus a direct connection to pentecost; even those ones schismatic from the Catholic Church founded by Christ hold to this doctrine, it is only with the 15th century and the rise of the protestant heresy that this was rejected within christendom. Before then it was universal in belief.
PART II
well since a catholic in the right state of mind (that is with attention to meaning and the intent of the prayer instead of the empty repetition you so describe) does not say prayers as empty ritual then there is no problem as you have freely admitted.
GhostWriter16
Deity
@Kochman- That's a valid point, and as I said, repetition of prayer isn't sinful in itself, but if it becomes empty ritual it is. If it is helping him, its not empty is it?
That said, the Catholic system of priests commanding prayer repetitions is wrong since it commands "Babbling" instead of praying what is truly on your heart.
That said, the Catholic system of priests commanding prayer repetitions is wrong since it commands "Babbling" instead of praying what is truly on your heart.
Jehoshua
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Apparently your understanding of what actually going on in a catholic mass is limited. I can assure you that when conducted properly by a faithful priest as the unworthy instrument of the people serving as the alter christus (another christ) in the role of presenter of the one sacrifice of Christ on the cross, re-presented (made present again) un-bloodily in the Eucharist the mass is as far from "babbling without meaning" as the sun is from the end of the universe.
The mass is not simply a mere prayer meeting, one doesn;t need a priest or a church to do that.
The mass is not simply a mere prayer meeting, one doesn;t need a priest or a church to do that.
kochman
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Agreed... it says... do this and your ok... even if you don't mean it.
Salvation through works...
GhostWriter16
Deity
@Jehoshua- I was talking about the whole "If you say three Hail Mary's and three Our Fathers you will be forgiven" thing.
Jehoshua
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@kochman
salvation through works is not catholic theology.
I have already discussed this elsewhere (presumably the ask a protestant christian thread or earlier on this one).
However once again the Church teaches that one is only justified in salvation through the grace of God and his mercy for no man can justify on his own power his way into heaven. The process (which I have already detailed elsewhere) is that via acquired true faith, which is no empty 'dead' faith with no action but in reality faith shown to be true, to be ''alive' through works, positive action and through participation in the sacramental life of the Church. Via this true faith, this fidelity to all Christ commanded, one opens themself to the grace of God thus opening the way to sanctification and salvation.
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@domination3000
As to the three hail marys and one our father sort of thing (I apologise for the misconception of your intent) it does not exist in that manner. You cannot say three hail marys and an our father (or other variant) and be forgiven, this penitential act of prayer is associated not apart of the sacrament of reconcilliation and in no way plays a part in ordinary absolution. It comes after, not during or before the actual absolution for sin.
It is in fact a remnant of a time when the Church commanded much greater penance for the rite of reconcilliation, (such as a pilgrimage to Jerusalem, extremely dangerous at the time) to show sincerity and true penance in the light of ones absolution. (incidentally the sacrament was taken less often than presently) That said the smaller penance is mandated today in order to ensure one (presumably in the proper pious attitude), prays them in a contemplative manner and in this attitude reflects on his sin and the grace that God in His mercy has given them instead of leaving without reflection and going right back onto what he was doing to sin in the first place.
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and now I should get some rest.
salvation through works is not catholic theology.
I have already discussed this elsewhere (presumably the ask a protestant christian thread or earlier on this one).
However once again the Church teaches that one is only justified in salvation through the grace of God and his mercy for no man can justify on his own power his way into heaven. The process (which I have already detailed elsewhere) is that via acquired true faith, which is no empty 'dead' faith with no action but in reality faith shown to be true, to be ''alive' through works, positive action and through participation in the sacramental life of the Church. Via this true faith, this fidelity to all Christ commanded, one opens themself to the grace of God thus opening the way to sanctification and salvation.
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@domination3000
As to the three hail marys and one our father sort of thing (I apologise for the misconception of your intent) it does not exist in that manner. You cannot say three hail marys and an our father (or other variant) and be forgiven, this penitential act of prayer is associated not apart of the sacrament of reconcilliation and in no way plays a part in ordinary absolution. It comes after, not during or before the actual absolution for sin.
It is in fact a remnant of a time when the Church commanded much greater penance for the rite of reconcilliation, (such as a pilgrimage to Jerusalem, extremely dangerous at the time) to show sincerity and true penance in the light of ones absolution. (incidentally the sacrament was taken less often than presently) That said the smaller penance is mandated today in order to ensure one (presumably in the proper pious attitude), prays them in a contemplative manner and in this attitude reflects on his sin and the grace that God in His mercy has given them instead of leaving without reflection and going right back onto what he was doing to sin in the first place.
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and now I should get some rest.
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