Ask a Mormon, Part 4

[Ajidica]

1) Bizarre baby names (either old timey Mormon names, or names that are typically given to black people)

Please tell me in a Mormon school you can find a DeShawn sitting next to a Jeremiah.

 

[Eran of Arcadia]

What is the reason you Mormons are Mormon?

A variety of reasons - the doctrine makes sense, but ultimately because of spiritual reasons.

Do you believe in the great apostasy?

Yes. Which means that we believe that for several reasons, early in the history of Christianity the priesthood authority and divine revelation was lost.

Please tell me in a Mormon school you can find a DeShawn sitting next to a Jeremiah.

It's also the only place you will find a boy named Alma.

 

[NBAfan]

A variety of reasons - the doctrine makes sense, but ultimately because of spiritual reasons.



Yes. Which means that we believe that for several reasons, early in the history of Christianity the priesthood authority and divine revelation was lost.

One last question from me, have you seriously studied any historical evidence for the great apostasy claim? Have you found any factual historical evidence for the claim?

 

[Eran of Arcadia]

One last question from me, have you seriously studied any historical evidence for the great apostasy claim? Have you found any factual historical evidence for the claim?

The entire idea that an apostasy happened - or that it could have but didn't - is ahistorical.

In other words, since there is no historical evidence that there is any such thing as priesthood authority, there is neither evidence that it exists, nor that it ever ceased to exist.

However, there is plenty of evidence that the doctrines and practices of early Christianity changed greatly in its first few centuries (as well as every subsequent century . . . )

 

[mayor]

I'm not sure whether this is a question for 'Ask a Mormon' or just 'Ask a Christian' but since it came up here.

What is the 'The great apostasy'?

 

[Eran of Arcadia]

It means different things to different religions.

However, the Mormon understanding is that after Christ established the Church during his life and ministry, within a few generations it "fell away" from what it had been. Due to persecution, the difficulty of travel and communication, schisms among and between groups, etc. apostolic authority was lost. Thus there was no one who held the priesthood (ie divine authority) or could receive revelation on behalf of all of Christianity. This was the state of Christianity until that authority was restored through Joseph Smith.

 

[mayor]

It means different things to different religions.

However, the Mormon understanding is that after Christ established the Church during his life and ministry, within a few generations it "fell away" from what it had been. Due to persecution, the difficulty of travel and communication, schisms among and between groups, etc. apostolic authority was lost. Thus there was no one who held the priesthood (ie divine authority) or could receive revelation on behalf of all of Christianity. This was the state of Christianity until that authority was restored through Joseph Smith.

Aha, well the first part sounds only logical to me (quick research said that was indeed the stance I should take according to my church ) and the second part.. well, matter of faith isn't it

 

[hobbsyoyo]

What is a mormon hell like? (sorry if it's been answered before)

 

[Eran of Arcadia]

It probably has, but there are 4 of these things. Not going to expect everyone to read through everything before asking any questions.

So, according to LDS teachings, when someone dies, they go to either paradise or spirit prison depending on how they lived and whether they have received the necessary ordinances (rituals, basically) for salvation. Those who did not know of the gospel have the chance to do so, and to receive the ordinances by proxy (hence we perform baptism for the dead - if you are for some reason interested in reading a long running debate/argument about that, see the last couple of pages here). We may sometimes refer to spirit prison as "hell", but it is neither eternal nor a place of endless suffering - it's just a place separate from the presence of God, in which someone's eternal progress is halted.

Then comes resurrection and judgment - and most people* will end up going to one of the three kingdoms of glory, as we call them. The highest, or Celestial Kingdom, is most like what someone else would call heaven - eternal progression in the presence of God. The lowest, for those who completely reject the atonement of Christ and his forgiveness, is called the Telestial. Those who go here will have to suffer for their sins (I don't know exactly what that entails) before entering the Telestial Kingdom. So we could refer to the Telestial Kingdom as "hell" - except that according to LDS scripture, even that is so much better than life on earth that we can't even comprehend it. But those who are there live outside the presence of God, and their eternal progression is stopped, and I suppose they have an eternity to think about the bad things they did on earth.

So we don't believe in an afterlife that involves complete suffering for eternity. Although, to be fair, not all mainstream Christians do.

*I have to mention for completeness' sake that those who commit one specific sin will be cut off completely from any of this - but having a truly complete knowledge of God and rejecting Him is something very, very few people even have the chance to do.

 

[_random_]

Yeah, the idea of a temporary Hell is one with a fair bit of precedent in mainstream Christendom.

At the risk of getting too political, what was the general attitude in your Mormon communities after Romney lost?

 

[hobbsyoyo]

Thanks Eran. That really puts baptism for the dead in perspective.

Though I understand why it is so offensive to many people, I understand why Mormons would do it - it's an attempt to save people.

I feel the same (as an atheist) for people who raise their children to be religious. Though I completely disagree with their goal in doing so, I empathize with their motivation.

 

[GhostWriter16]

Then comes resurrection and judgment - and most people* will end up going to one of the three kingdoms of glory, as we call them. The highest, or Celestial Kingdom, is most like what someone else would call heaven - eternal progression in the presence of God. The lowest, for those who completely reject the atonement of Christ and his forgiveness, is called the Telestial. Those who go here will have to suffer for their sins (I don't know exactly what that entails) before entering the Telestial Kingdom. So we could refer to the Telestial Kingdom as "hell" - except that according to LDS scripture, even that is so much better than life on earth that we can't even comprehend it. But those who are there live outside the presence of God, and their eternal progression is stopped, and I suppose they have an eternity to think about the bad things they did on earth.

How is it determined who goes to which one? And you mentioned Telestial and Celestial here, Terrestrial is the third, right? Who goes there?

 

[Zack]

*I have to mention for completeness' sake that those who commit one specific sin will be cut off completely from any of this - but having a truly complete knowledge of God and rejecting Him is something very, very few people even have the chance to do.

Is there any person you can think of that satisfies this requirement? Judas Iscariot, maybe?

 

[Eran of Arcadia]

Yeah, the idea of a temporary Hell is one with a fair bit of precedent in mainstream Christendom.

Amusingly enough, not one hour after that post I happened to read an article in the New Yorker about a quasi-evangelical pastor named Rob Bell who had created a stir in his congregation when he wrote a book arguing for wider salvation - but there are plenty who agreed with him.

At the risk of getting too political, what was the general attitude in your Mormon communities after Romney lost?

I don't think it was significantly different from any group of similar makeup - lost of Republicans upset that he lost, but that's just because they were Republicans.

How is it determined who goes to which one? And you mentioned Telestial and Celestial here, Terrestrial is the third, right? Who goes there?

It's Celestial, Terrestrial, Telestial.

Is there any person you can think of that satisfies this requirement? Judas Iscariot, maybe?

Cain has been named as one. Judas Iscariot is generally assumed to be one. of course, by some accounts he wouldn't qualify.

 

[GhostWriter16]

Amusingly enough, not one hour after that post I happened to read an article in the New Yorker about a quasi-evangelical pastor named Rob Bell who had created a stir in his congregation when he wrote a book arguing for wider salvation - but there are plenty who agreed with him.

Rob Bell is not an Evangelical, he's a blatant heretic

It's Celestial, Terrestrial, Telestial.

OK, so how is it determined exactly who goes to which? I know you said the "Totally unrepentent" go to Telestial, who goes to the other two and why?

 

[_random_]

Rob Bell is not an Evangelical, he's a blatant heretic

Well those are hardly mutually exclusive. (Snark aside, it's not like there's any governing body determining who's in and who's out. However you classify Bell, he certainly draws a lot from evangelicalism.)

 

[GhostWriter16]

Well those are hardly mutually exclusive. (Snark aside, it's not like there's any governing body determining who's in and who's out. However you classify Bell, he certainly draws a lot from evangelicalism.)

Well, true. I briefly discussed this (Not Bell himself, but the fact that there is no "Official Evangelical position" on anything.) That said, a high emphasis on Evangelism and Biblical infallibility are pretty much the two basic premises of Evangelicalism. I don't see why Evangelizing would even be necessary under Universalism.

 

[ace99]

So what are you guys up to?

Mormon Church has launched a new website in an attempt to "encourage understanding" with gays and lesbians, an effort heralded by activists as a departure from the church's perceived hostility toward the LGBT community.

Presented as a “collection of conversations” with LDS leaders and Mormons “who are attracted to people of the same sex,” the website, mormonsandgays.org, launched Thursday.

The site includes an unusual statement for a major religious body: that sexuality, including same-sex attraction, is not a personal choice. But it maintains that acting on that attraction is still a "sin."

“What we do know is that the doctrine of the church – that sexual activity should only occur between a man and a woman who are married – has not changed and is not changing,” Elder Quentin Cook said in statement announcing the site's launch. “But what is changing and what needs to change is to help our own members and families understand how to deal with same-gender attraction.”

The website, which a spokesman said has been in production for more than two years, features a number of videos from top church leaders and gay and straight lay Mormons, who share their experiences counseling Mormons who suffer from AIDS and advising Mormon parents not to reject children who pursue a gay lifestyle.

The development of the site was launched only a short time after the Mormon Church encouraged its members to get involved in the high-profile fight over Proposition 8 -- a ban on gay marriage -- in California in 2008.

The church, which was blasted by the LGBT community at the time, has since ended directives that Latter-Day Saints should oppose civil rights for gay families. In 2009, it officially endorsed gay rights initiatives in Salt Lake City that stopped just short of civil unions or marriage.

“On this website we witness something that church leaders rarely do: admit that we’ve done things wrong in the past. In light of this, the clear admission that things need to change is particularly welcome, if long overdue," Spencer Clark, executive director for Mormons for Marriage Equality, said in an email to NBC News.

Public acceptance of gay marriage among all Americans has increased to record highs. A Gallup poll released Wednesday showed that 53 percent of Americans favor legalizing same-sex marriage.

Year-to-year membership statistics for the Mormon church place it among the fastest-growing religions, with more than 5 million members in the U.S. and more than 14 million members worldwide, the church reported in early 2012.

Randall Thacker, president elect for Affirmation, an organization supporting gay and lesbian Mormons, said the site brings to surface the openness of the Mormon culture to adaptation.

“The church is adaptable because we have a worldwide religion, which brings in people every day from all different perspectives and frames of reference, and so we have to be able to have a church membership that is ready for change,” Thacker told NBC News.

For Clark, the website represents a turning point for his faith’s stance on homosexuality.

“Too often, gay Mormons and their families have felt that they had to choose between their loyalty to each other and to their church,” Clark said. “Latter-Day Saints have often described gay individuals as ‘struggling with same-sex attraction’ without considering whether the true test from God was on those who are straight to see if they would struggle loving those who are gay. We simply can’t claim to love God, and not love the gay children, parents or neighbors that he has placed in our lives.”

Jim Dabakis, a former Mormon missionary and soon to be the only gay person in the state legislature, told the Salt Lake Tribune he’s thrilled with the new site.

“I give tremendous credit to the LDS Church,” Dabakis said. “This can’t have been easy,” acknowledging ever-improving relations between the Mormon church and the gay community.

Clark said he believes the website will help heal deep-seated wounds.

“It is clear that church leaders have heard the voices and stories of so many Mormons who have been working to make things better for our gay and lesbian brothers and sisters, and I believe this will help open the door to even greater progress in the future.”

http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/201...-mormon-church-sexuality-is-not-a-choice?lite

What does this mean?

 

[Plotinus]

I don't see why Evangelizing would even be necessary under Universalism.

Because you might think that everyone will be saved eventually, but only after they've heard the Gospel and accepted it. So it's better to preach it to them sooner rather than later.

This is basically the view of classical Christian universalists such as Origen and St Gregory of Nyssa - you have to be a Christian to be saved, but everyone will eventually become a Christian. There is an alternate version of universalism, according to which everyone can be saved through their own religions without having to become a Christian, which has its roots in the theology of St Justin. I agree that evangelism seems less important under that version of universalism, but it could still have a place; it might be easier to be saved if you're a Christian rather than anything else. Also, of course, trying to save people is not the sole motivation for evangelism.

 

[Eran of Arcadia]

So what are you guys up to?


http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/201...-mormon-church-sexuality-is-not-a-choice?lite

What does this mean?

It can end up meaning a lot of things.

Strictly, speaking, none of what the Church just said - that attraction to members of your own gender is not a choice, even if it is a sin to act on it; that all gay people need to be treated with love and compassion, especially members of your own family; that gay couples deserve some legal benefits for their union, even if the Church is unwilling to see the label "marriage" put on such unions - is a major break from its previous position, as far as I can tell. In fact, if you had asked me a week ago, before this came out, I would have said that all of the above is the Church's position already.

But maybe a lot of other Church members would not have felt that way. Certainly there have been cases of members shunning or disowning gay family members; now they have even less of an excuse to do so. I don't know if this means the Church will take disciplinary actions against those who do, though. Every LDS Facebook friend I have who commented basically agrees with the statement, although that could be selection bias.