Ask a Québécois

[Evie]

I don't have anything against the bilingual country, either. Before I started school, I watched Chez Helene on TV, I enjoyed the French classes in the city school I went to for 2 years, and after that I took every French class I could in junior high, senior high, and college. Heck, years after that, I ran into my old high school French teacher and when he found out I had a home typing business, he hired me to do legal papers for him - some of which were in French, so I was very glad I'd kept in practice with the reading, at least.

But some of the hostility you see from me in threads such as these comes from the language laws and the idea that one of the country's official languages is actually illegal in some circumstances. I cannot wrap my mind around the fact that ordinary store owners ended up in court because they had English signs on the outside of their store, or even inside. To me, that's obscene.

Here, I can advertise in any language I want - Klingonese, even. I wouldn't get much response to anything but English, but at least I wouldn't end up in court.

Yes, making english altogether illegal was a complete aberration to say the least. It was downright stupid. Mind you, it wasn't a Parti Québécois law (1974 law, the PQ wouldn't take power for another two years). It was adopted by a federalist premier.

It's also not the law anymore. What the law says now is that you can have whatever language you want, so long as you also have French (and not in a second-rate place).

Are there changes I'd make? Yes. The law isn't as good as it should be At present, the law says French has to be the most visible language on the sign; I'd reduce that to requiring equal presence for French and whatever the primary language is. I'd also altogether exempt Native-languages signs from the law (at present they're exempted within reservations, not in the surrounding regions, and I consider that a problem). I could, perhaps, see increased exemptions for smaller, localized business (eg, a ma and pa store that has a single location in a bilingual town near the border, not the same as a big chain that has stores all over the place. The later doesn't get a pass, but I'd advocate some ).

I would never support completely removing the French requirement, because everything I've observed tells me that there are many big corporations that, given the chance, would just skip French and use straight English. There are enough Quebecers who can work their way around English if they must that the business losses would be low, and the economy of not having to worry about an extra language in North America would make up for it.

(Keep in mind that food labeling may be an exception to this, because IIRC food labeling is governed by federal laws that may well mandate bilingual labeling anyway)

But, the central point is, it's a requirement to include French, not a ban on English, and hasn't been for more than a quarter century.

 

[warpus]

And yes, French education in the provinces-that-aren't-Quebec is essentially a joke. We don't hold it against individual Canadians that they donT' speak french, we blame Canadian society for it

It can't be all that bad. There seem to be several French immersial schools in every at least medium sized Canadian city (at least in Ontario).. and a lot of non Quebecois Canadians manage to speak French just fine.

I think the problem might be that they are trying to get everyone to learn the language, when not everyone is interested. Resources stretch and you end up with crappy teachers and students who don't care. Then again, if you modify the system to only teach those who care, that'll go against the whole spirit of the bilingual country we've set up here.. But I can't think of a better way to improve things.

And having said THAT, I'm only basing this on my 2 experiences with the system. Maybe general level French classes just suck to begin with. I wonder what the hell they were teaching in basic-level French then though.. (I think this basic/general/advanced system is no longer used in Ontario btw)

The problem with Canada should be seen in that light - it's not what we hold against English Canadians, it's what serves to remind us of the Conquest.

What's annoying is getting labelled as an Anglo-Canadian and associated with all that even though my ancestors at the time were busy fighting Russians in Poland and have nothing to at all with the colonization of North America. Mind you this hasn't really been a big problem, but it has happened before, more than once.

And a vision of Canada as an English country with a French minority is always going to remind us of that. Which is why we vastly prefer a vision of Canada, the bilingual French/English country.

Can't you have a bilingual country with the ethnic French-Canadian population as a minority?

I mean look, the demographics aren't going to change anytime soon. French is always going to be a minority. Is this always going to be a problem for some people?

 

[Valka D'Ur]

Yes, making english altogether illegal was a complete aberration to say the least. It was downright stupid. Mind you, it wasn't a Parti Québécois law (1974 law, the PQ wouldn't take power for another two years). It was adopted by a federalist premier.

It's also not the law anymore. What the law says now is that you can have whatever language you want, so long as you also have French (and not in a second-rate place).

Are there changes I'd make? Yes. The law isn't as good as it should be At present, the law says French has to be the most visible language on the sign; I'd reduce that to requiring equal presence for French and whatever the primary language is. I'd also altogether exempt Native-languages signs from the law (at present they're exempted within reservations, not in the surrounding regions, and I consider that a problem). I could, perhaps, see increased exemptions for smaller, localized business (eg, a ma and pa store that has a single location in a bilingual town near the border, not the same as a big chain that has stores all over the place. The later doesn't get a pass, but I'd advocate some ).

I would never support completely removing the French requirement, because everything I've observed tells me that there are many big corporations that, given the chance, would just skip French and use straight English. There are enough Quebecers who can work their way around English if they must that the business losses would be low, and the economy of not having to worry about an extra language in North America would make up for it.

(Keep in mind that food labeling may be an exception to this, because IIRC food labeling is governed by federal laws that may well mandate bilingual labeling anyway)

But, the central point is, it's a requirement to include French, not a ban on English, and hasn't been for more than a quarter century.

Then explain the kerfuffle over stores that had outside signs with apostrophes. The language police didn't give a damn about store names, or how long (decades, in some cases) the store had been in business - they wanted those English apostrophes gone, and hauled the store owners into court over it.

It can't be all that bad. There seem to be several French immersial schools in every at least medium sized Canadian city (at least in Ontario).. and a lot of non Quebecois Canadians manage to speak French just fine.

I think the problem might be that they are trying to get everyone to learn the language, when not everyone is interested. Resources stretch and you end up with crappy teachers and students who don't care. Then again, if you modify the system to only teach those who care, that'll go against the whole spirit of the bilingual country we've set up here.. But I can't think of a better way to improve things.

You have to give people a concrete reason to want to learn the language. "Because of 250-year-old history and Pierre Trudeau's vision of multiculturalism" isn't going to be enough for most people.

I did some French tutoring in college, for arts students who were compelled to take French because they hadn't already done so in high school. Not one of them could see any practical value in having to take French, because they knew they'd never use it in either their personal or professional lives.

So there you have it: two sides of the issue, where I took French by choice because I thought it was interesting, and the people I tutored who took it under duress and hated it. I did try to put a positive spin on it for them, explaining that for one thing, they wouldn't have to worry about the French side of the cans and boxes being accidentally turned outward in the grocery stores.

What's annoying is getting labelled as an Anglo-Canadian and associated with all that even though my ancestors at the time were busy fighting Russians in Poland and have nothing to at all with the colonization of North America. Mind you this hasn't really been a big problem, but it has happened before, more than once.

Yep. My grandmother's family came over from Sweden sometime between 1906 and 1910, and my grandfather came over from Sweden c. 1920. They lived in British Columbia and Alberta, working as farmers, sawmill operators, and in the smelter in Trail, B.C. So none of them had anything at all to do with Quebec, the Conquest, or anything else.

It's the same issue with the First Nations. I've been the target of some rather hateful remarks from someone from the Hobbema reserve, simply because my ancestry is European. Well, guess what: My family had nothing to do with what happened to the Native North Americans, and no damn way do we deserve any crap for it.

Can't you have a bilingual country with the ethnic French-Canadian population as a minority?

I mean look, the demographics aren't going to change anytime soon. French is always going to be a minority. Is this always going to be a problem for some people?

Unfortunately, it will always be a problem for some people.

 

[warpus]

You have to give people a concrete reason to want to learn the language. "Because of 250-year-old history and Pierre Trudeau's vision of multiculturalism" isn't going to be enough for most people.

I've actually always sort of wanted to know French and be fluent in it. I don't know any romance languages yet, but I do know 2 Germanic languages and a Slavic one.. plus random bits of a romantic one (Spanish).

I'd be awesome if I knew French, but the current system seems to be really set up for people who start learning in grade 4, not people like me who showed up later.

 

[Evie]

Then explain the kerfuffle over stores that had outside signs with apostrophes. The language police didn't give a damn about store names, or how long (decades, in some cases) the store had been in business - they wanted those English apostrophes gone, and hauled the store owners into court over it.

EDIT: having double-checked the law in question, I see two possibilities.

1)The sign laws (Section 58 of the charter of the french language). It states that French must occupy a larger hare of the sign than other languages). If your business name is counted as being English language, and your business name occupy most of the sign, then yes, there will be an issue. It can be resolved by removing the apostrophe, or by adding a french descriptor to the sign that's clearly visible.

2)The business registration law, which states that business in Quebec should operate under a French name (section 63 of the Charter, Section 17 of the act respecting the legal publicity of companies) in addition to any foreign-language names. This does not apply to business that bear the name of their owner, or made-up names inspired by other languages, but may apply for apostrophes. 4

I believe there are also exemption for foreign companies that wish to operate under their pre-established name. It specifically allows for name that are both French/some other language (for example: "Les aliments Valka's" instead of "Valka's" or "Valka's Foodstuff")

The second one has generally in the past been applied with leniency, but there have been incidents of language inspectors applying it more strictly. It might be what happened here.

I'd be generally in favor of modifying #2, personally. But it does not amount to a ban on using English for signs, which is a ban that was lifted a quarter-century ago.

Can't you have a bilingual country with the ethnic French-Canadian population as a minority?

I'd certainly hope you can, because if the only way to have a bilingual country is a 50-50 split, then we're screwed.

But I'm talking more about the role within the country than about numerical minorities. If French Canadians (and francophones in general) play the role of a minority, then the expectation is that English is the language of Canada (and French just the language of a minority people within Canada), and that the French-Canadians have a moral obligation to learn and speak the language of their country, and likewise immigrants have a moral obligation to learn english and to integrate with English Canada.

If, on the other hand, Canada is a true bilingual country, where they are BOTH considered the language of Canada, then the situation is different. There is no one language of Canada that everyone should learn, but rather two languages of Canada. Which one you learn should depends on which community you intend to live your life in, and how much you want to be able to interact with the other community.

As it stands, Canada is doing a pretty good job of being the later, but the Toronto medias and medias further out west often come off as thinking Canada should be the former.

What's annoying is getting labelled as an Anglo-Canadian and associated with all that even though my ancestors at the time were busy fighting Russians in Poland and have nothing to at all with the colonization of North America. Mind you this hasn't really been a big problem, but it has happened before, more than once.

Thing is, it's not about your ancestors at all. It's about what YOU do (though you have every right to do it!) now that serves as a reminder of what happened then. What happened then is in no way your fault or your ancestors, but that doesn't mean it doesn't sting today when you remind me of it.

And, well, living in a country where most of the population use English as their everyday language (including you)? That's pretty much always going to serve as a reminder that Canada was conquered by English-speaking people, for hopefully pretty obvious reason. Doesn't mean you shouldn't speak English (that's dumb), but it means there will pretty much always be some lingering tension.

(The First Nations, in this case, have it much worse...and in THAT case, we - as a collective group - are guilty of not fixing a whole host of ongoing problems)

 

[DC123456789]

What is the view of the average Quebecois on independence? How much do they really care?

How different do you find Quebec French and French French?

What accent do they teach French in at Canadian schools? International or Quebecois? I've heard it both ways, and I really don't have any idea how I'm being taught in class...

 

[warpus]

And, well, living in a country where most of the population use English as their everyday language (including you)? That's pretty much always going to serve as a reminder that Canada was conquered by English-speaking people, for hopefully pretty obvious reason. Doesn't mean you shouldn't speak English (that's dumb), but it means there will pretty much always be some lingering tension.

As someone who's had to learn 2 languages to adapt to living in a new country, I personally just see it as a reminder that English is the de facto Lingua Franca of the planet. No pun intended.

And either way, I refuse to be labelled as an "anglo-" anything. I speak English, because I live here, but I have nothing to do with the Anglo-Saxons. If you want to label me as an Anglophone or something similar, that's fine, but I don't go to their meetings and I do not get their newsletters.

 

[Zelig]

As someone who's had to learn 2 languages to adapt to living in a new country, I personally just see it as a reminder that English is the de facto Lingua Franca of the planet. No pun intended.

And either way, I refuse to be labelled as an "anglo-" anything. I speak English, because I live here, but I have nothing to do with the Anglo-Saxons. If you want to label me as an Anglophone or something similar, that's fine, but I don't go to their meetings and I do not get their newsletters.

What? If you want to describe someone who speaks English, "anglophone" is the appropriate word, and has no other meanings.

 

[Evie]

What is the view of the average Quebecois on independence? How much do they really care?

Less and less. Independence is polling pretty low lately.

Largely, it's because people don't really care anymore, not because they love Canada now. A huge part of the population has switched to "Canada, whatever. Let's worry about more pressing issues."

How different do you find Quebec French and French French?

Pretty different. Quebec francophones can usually understand (barely) French francophones, though there have been times when I just listened to french, especially Parisian, and was just "Are they even speaking French?". And I've heard of Quebecers being offered to switch to "native" English by French folk who didn't understand them.

What accent do they teach French in at Canadian schools? International or Quebecois? I've heard it both ways, and I really don't have any idea how I'm being taught in class...

I'm given to understand it varies.

As someone who's had to learn 2 languages to adapt to living in a new country, I personally just see it as a reminder that English is the de facto Lingua Franca of the planet. No pun intended.

We don't live in a country where the vast majority speak english because english is the lingua franca. Though I do see it as a good reason to learn English (and it's part of the reason why I tend toward American rather than Anglo-Canadian spelling).

And either way, I refuse to be labelled as an "anglo-" anything. I speak English, because I live here, but I have nothing to do with the Anglo-Saxons. If you want to label me as an Anglophone or something similar, that's fine, but I don't go to their meetings and I do not get their newsletters.

Hey, I take offense at being called French-most anything (French Canadian is an exception, though I'd honestly prefer a term like "Canadien" (in its english use) because it reflects appartenance to the old French colony of Canada, not ethnic ties to France), and I actually HAVE the French ancestry. Just I don't feel any connection to France at a personal level anymore. I'm Québécois, I'm Francophone, I'm Canadian, Canadien and French-Canadian, but I'm not French.

So yeah, I can see why you'd be annoyed at being labeled Anglo-anything. And I suppose technically you would be counted as an Allophone since technically I think it count mother tongue or tongue used at home, not everyday use language.

 

[Valka D'Ur]

(The First Nations, in this case, have it much worse...and in THAT case, we - as a collective group - are guilty of not fixing a whole host of ongoing problems)

Speak for yourself. I personally bear no blame or guilt whatsoever for not fixing the many problems that were caused by governments, churches, and in some cases, mismanagement by the band councils themselves.

What accent do they teach French in at Canadian schools? International or Quebecois? I've heard it both ways, and I really don't have any idea how I'm being taught in class...

They teach Parisian French here in Alberta.


Oda Nobunaga, here's a question on a different issue. Louis Riel: Traitor or hero?

 

[Evie]

Speak for yourself. I personally bear no blame or guilt whatsoever for not fixing the many problems that were caused by governments, churches, and in some cases, mismanagement by the band councils themselves.

Who chose the government, and in whose name does the government act?

Sure, not your name personally. But our name as a collective, and you're part of that collective group as much as I am or Warpus is. Ultimately, the government get away with not fixing past mistake because we, the people, allow them to.

Oda Nobunaga, here's a question on a different issue. Louis Riel: Traitor or hero?

Hero. If it's only these two choices, then there's not even a choice. Québec's been pro-Riel since before his execution, and we still are (and so am I). Nice to see most of the rest of Canada finally came around to our views on the matter

In a lenghtier, more detailed version I might present him as a tragic anti-hero undone by his own flaws and the mistakes they led him to, as much as his enemies' actions. But not a traitor, and not a vilain. It was Canada that betrayed the Métis, not the other way around.

His trial was a farce before a jury that was Deep South-level bad.

 

[warpus]

What? If you want to describe someone who speaks English, "anglophone" is the appropriate word, and has no other meanings.

That's what I said though, that anglophone is probably the only appropriate label for me, out of all the ones that start with the word "Anglo".

We don't live in a country where the vast majority speak english because english is the lingua franca. Though I do see it as a good reason to learn English (and it's part of the reason why I tend toward American rather than Anglo-Canadian spelling).

Yeah, our experiences here differ greatly. I saw it as "just another language to learn, sigh".. but at the same time realized that it's a language that's spoken all over the world, so very useful to know. Learning French would have been good too - it's used in a bunch of places too. Not nearly as many, but not so bad. If I had to learn Swahili after arriving to Canada, I would have been more annoyed, since it's not really used that much anywhere.

So yeah, I can see why you'd be annoyed at being labeled Anglo-anything.

Not really annoyed that much I guess, but I've had several people in the past try to group me in with the Anglo-Saxons, their history, and so on, just because I'm white and I live in Ontario.

Nope, not a part of that group at all, in any sort of way.

 

[tonberry]

Pretty different. Quebec francophones can usually understand (barely) French francophones, though there have been times when I just listened to french, especially Parisian, and was just "Are they even speaking French?". And I've heard of Quebecers being offered to switch to "native" English by French folk who didn't understand them.

Sorry to intrude in your thread Oda but… really? I don’t know any québécois that had problems understanding french from France. Even with the street french of, say, Marseilles, we understand enough of it to get the meaning of what the person want to say. When I go there, I also don’t have to make any effort to get myself understood nor have I heard of anyone who had to. Every once in a while, we may have to repeat a word or two (butter seem to be a repeat offender) but otherwise it’s fine and it’s not like I speak like Mathieu Bock-Côté.

It’s true that when French people come here, it’s a bit different. It’s like a British trying to understand Texas english. They may be confused a bit at the beginning but, after a month or two (if not a week), they understand everything.

 

[Evie]

It depends, really. In many cases, yeah, it's what you describe. In others...well, I remember some cases, especially in films, where subtitles needed to be turned on, for Parisian french, because I just couldn't follow what they were saying, between the slang the accent and the talking speed.

And yes, once you get used to the accent and slang that is much better.

 

[EgonSpengler]

Ray Borque: Hero or traitor?

 

[Evie]

A hockey player who played for the team that drafted him.

 

[gay_Aleks]

Is Quebec more or less interested in hockey than the rest of Canada?

 

[Evie]

Certainly not less.

More? Which part of Canada is most interested in hokey is probably an ongoing disagreement.

The one thing that stand out for sure in Quebec compared to most (but perhaps not all) other cities is that for a long time hockey was a way for french-canadians to compete with (and, occasionally, outshine) english folks (From Canada and the US). The Canadiens especially became such a symbol, deliberately on the owners' part, (hence the whole drama whenever the team captain can't even speak French, and the lack of French player in general). It's thus becomes a huge cultural institution.

 

[ywhtptgtfo]

Which type of French sounds more elegant? Montreal French or Parisian French?

 

[tetley]

What did you do for Canada Day? Did you sing O Canada in French at all?