Ask a Québécois

[Evie]

While we're on First Nations: how much of Québécois identity do you think came from or incorporated indigenous elements, if any.

Some of them have some traces of native influence. We borrowed eating corn on the cob from natives for sure, and that lead to the traditional épluchette de blé d'inde (literally: corn-peeling), where families or friends gather with big bags of unpeeled corn, peel them together, then boil them and serve them as dinner (usually along with hot-dogs or hamburgers).

The snowshoes, something of a Québec symbol, are also something that came to us via the natives.

You could also point at the coureur des bois and voyageurs - a huge part of our identity even if we aren't doing that anymore. The adventurous frenchmen venturing far from home to travel the woods, hunt, trap and trade for fur...that's a huge part of our mental identity (And I think it may play into a lingering love of the great outdoors). And that entire aspect was very much marked by the natives - the coureur des bois were frenchmen who went native culturally speaking.

And then, there's Francis Parkman's infamous quote - the Spaniard enslaved the natives, the Englishmen pushed them away, and the French embraced them. (We usually rephrase it was "and the French married them"). It's taken as accepted fact that by and large, French Quebecers have first nations ancestry in some form.

And what are contemporary Québécois opinion towards contemporary First Nations, or Metis Nations?

Tragically similar to what they are elsewhere in Canada (and, one suspects, the US) Far too many people view them as lazy bums who don't pay taxes, smuggle tobacco and otherwise get to ignore the law while getting welfare from the government. Or otherwise a forgotten people whose troubles aren't worth solving.

(I don't share those views, obviously)

 

[tetley]

I would say it's the Spaniards who married the aboriginals. Latin America's mestizo population is over 90%.

Anyway, I was in the touristy Montreal (as in Old Town, BioDome, Mount Royal), and I must say I felt bad when everybody greeted me with "bonjour" and I had to respond with "hello". As to say I don't speak French. Should I feel bad? Everybody speaking English made touring Montreal possible.

Also, any affinity between the French Acadians? Or is it a shared language and that's it? Or even a rivalry? (kind of like how Senators & Maple Leafs or Edmonton & Calgary fans don't like each other, even though they're the same province)

 

[Evie]

I would say it's the Spaniards who married the aboriginals. Latin America's mestizo population is over 90%.

There were a lot of mixed race slaves born on plantations back in the antebellum south. Doesn't mean much about how many whites ended up marrying black in those days, does it?

(And to add: mestizos, originally designated specifically the illegitimate children of white and natives, I believe). There was also the whole notion of pure-born Spaniards as a higher social caste, which wasn't really mirrored in French Canada.

So yeah, I think the statement remains fair.

Anyway, I was in the touristy Montreal (as in Old Town, BioDome, Mount Royal), and I must say I felt bad when everybody greeted me with "bonjour" and I had to respond with "hello". As to say I don't speak French. Should I feel bad? Everybody speaking English made touring Montreal possible.

Nah. We understand it from foreign tourists by and large. It's other Canadians, and especially other Quebecers, who should feel bad

Also, any affinity between the French Acadians? Or is it a shared language and that's it? Or even a rivalry? (kind of like how Senators & Maple Leafs or Edmonton & Calgary fans don't like each other, even though they're the same province)

I'd say some degree of kinship - we're the big two francophone communities in Canada - but also the understanding that we got where we are by very different paths, and that we are as a result very different people.

But I believe we have an Acadian around these part who may be willing to tell us his side of that one?

 

[tetley]

Oh, you're in Ottawa? Or Gatineau? I have the strangest question I have wondered about for years:

There is a traffic light just north of the Ottawa War Museum. Is there an intersection up there where sometimes you can have a right green arrow, and a left green arrow, but a red light going straight? I feel like I might have run a red light! Anyway, if you were the biker I almost hit, sorry 'bout that. I might not have understood the French street signs.

 

[Evie]

I'm in Ottawa these days, though I was't born there, and lived most of my life in Quebec. Only moved there in fall 2010.

I suspect it wasnt me, since I've only been in Ottawa for four years. Also, I'm not sure about the intersection - when was it exactly you were in Ottawa? The War museum moved in 2005, and I'm not sure which of the two location you're talking about.

 

[tetley]

Actually I think it might have been the Royal Ontario Museum (except I know that one's in Toronto)? The War Museum was a few blocks west of there. It's like you cross the Ottawa into Gatineau, and there was some weird 3-way traffic light, and to this day I can't figure out what I might have done.

When did the Rideau close to skating this year?

 

[Evie]

If you were into Gatineau, then that was in Quebec, so definitely not the R.O.M,.

The Canadian Museum of Civilization is the one right across the river in Gatineau (now Canadian museum of history because Harper needed an extra museum to put his war history exhibits in).

I'm not sure when exactly, I'd estimate sometime in march, given we had a late spring.

 

[Goodfella]

That's one hell of a complex question with one hell of a lot of possible answers, all of which have their own weak points.

I thought you'd have an interesting response and you certainly did. I figured the Columbian exchange would be an answer, as it is for the entire hemisphere, but I honestly had never heard of the Empress of Ireland and I wouldn't have imagined that there would still be hard feelings about something that happened in the 1700s. It certainly makes me wonder how the Natives or African Americans feel as the feeling of being a conquered people must be a magnitude greater.

(and, one suspects, the US) Far too many people view them as lazy bums who don't pay taxes, smuggle tobacco and otherwise get to ignore the law while getting welfare from the government. Or otherwise a forgotten people whose troubles aren't worth solving.

Yeah, pretty much.

 

[Evie]

It's not *hard feelings* per se. I think trauma is the best description. It's more something that inform how we view *ourselves* than how we view others.

And yes, I can't begin to imagine what it must be like for the Natives or African Americans, who not only got conquered, but got screwed over again and again and again after it happened.

 

[warpus]

I wouldn't get classic poutine at Smoke's - or anywhere else in Ontario for that matter. Ontarians can never seem to get the sauce right.

But I'd be all over any OTHER of Smoke's poutines (or those at the Elgin Street Diner in Ottawa, for that matter) in a heartbeat. Bacon is a personal favorite of mine, and I really need to get a Montreal Smoked Meat poutine in short order .

Nah, the classic poutine I had was some traditional place in Montreal that a friend dragged me to. She claimed it was some of the best and most authentic poutine you could get. And it was good, but that the cheese didn't melt at all left me a bit wanting. A couple other things were a bit off too, but maybe my expectations were too high.

There's a smoke's here in London, but I haven't even eaten there yet.. I've only visited the one in Toronto.

I think the best poutine I've ever eaten though was on my 2nd last trip to Montreal - we went to some diner for breakfast before our drive back home.. I got a large smoked meat poutine Amazing.

Nah. We understand it from foreign tourists by and large. It's other Canadians, and especially other Quebecers, who should feel bad

My problem is that I started learning French in grade 9, but grade 9 French was stupid. I got the highest mark in the class , because I'm good at memorizing verbs and such. And the teacher was stupid enough to sometimes use exact photocopies from our textbook in his tests. So I'd memorize everything and get lots of 95%+ style marks. A Hungarian friend, who was in my ESL class, ended up with the 2nd highest mark in the class. It was a bit of a joke between us and definitely a joke overall. We both didn't know a single word of French when the term began.. and we ended up learning exactly 0 French, aside from all the randomly memorized verbs and other words.

Mind you this was general level French.. I had the option of basic, general, and advanced, and figured advanced would be too advanced, since I knew 0 French. I figured general would be too hard, but I was convinced to go into it.. Well, it was super easy, but I didn't learn crap. The next year my councillors saw that I got such an amazing mark in French and they convinced me to take grade 10 advanced French. Advanced classes aren't really generally that advanced. Advanced math is basically what all non-idiots take, while general math is for people who are lazy or a bit slow (or behind), and basic math is all idiots, to give you an idea as to the difficulty levels involved.

So I went into that class and it's all in French and stuff.... As you remember I speak and understand 0 French, so I was completely and utterly lost. On the first day the teacher said a whole crapload of gibberish I did not understand at all, after which we went around the classroom, each person having to say something about themselves in French.. uh oh.. I memorized something somebody else said and ended up saying: "Je m'apelle warpus. Le jouer le basketball". (SP).. Do I even play basketball? Not at all. I just wanted to say *something*.

I ended up dropping the class after the first test results came back.. I didn't know how to answer anything, so I copied all my answers off the girl beside me. I ended up getting 30% or some such thing, so I dropped the class.

Mind you I tried speaking French while in Montreal. I tried buying metro tickets in French, but they lady behind the counter just broke into English.. My French is pretty bad... but I feel like I could have at least learned a bit of it! but nope..

 

[Zelig]

But I believe we have an Acadian around these part who may be willing to tell us his side of that one?

My dad's Acadian and I grew up speaking French at home, but because of lucrative federal government jobs for bilingual speakers, we moved around a bunch to various Parks Canada locations across the country for my mom's employment when I was growing up. Partly because of this, I don't really self-identify as Acadian, or any other group other than "Canadian".

I do have a weak spot for traditional Acadian food though. Was just back visiting my parents on the east coast last week and brought back a bag of ploye mix.

I've never lived in Quebec, but I've loved it every time I've visited. Would be my preferred province to live in if I was going to move back east. Also Quebec has some of my favorite beer/breweries.

Amusingly, I sometimes experience the same thing as warpus when I'm in Quebec - I'll greet someone in French, they don't recognize my accent and respond in English, and I'll insist on continuing in French.

 

[gay_Aleks]

Would you call Quebec the Texas of Canada?

 

[ywhtptgtfo]

Would you call Quebec the Texas of Canada?

Quebec is much more liberal than most of the other provinces.

 

[Evie]

California is the more common comparison, though the nationalist issues can trend more toward Texas. (Though California has its own fair deal of regional identity, no?)

Montreal itself is more San Fran than anything else, and Montreal is half the province.

And yes, French education in the provinces-that-aren't-Quebec is essentially a joke. We don't hold it against individual Canadians that they donT' speak french, we blame Canadian society for it

 

[Tahuti]

Do you think it is absurd that Quebecois use Arrêt instead of Stop on stop-signs?

 

[Valka D'Ur]

Nah. We understand it from foreign tourists by and large. It's other Canadians, and especially other Quebecers, who should feel bad

Why?

Look, if somebody comes up to me on the street and greets me in French (never happened yet, but between the tourists, immigrants, and exchange students, it could happen), I will likely reply in English, out of habit. If, however, it's a case of the person genuinely having trouble with English, I will try to use French - but it would be difficult since my conversational French skills were never that great, and I haven't used them for about 30 years. I read French a lot better than I speak it, and have much more recent practice (not counting bilingual labels and instruction manuals on the stuff I buy).

...I wouldn't have imagined that there would still be hard feelings about something that happened in the 1700s.

Considering that the Middle East has never really been at peace for thousands of years, it's not that hard to understand that some people might hold a grudge dating back 250 years. Mind you, there does come a time when the modern neighbors, none of whom had anything to do with the original conflict and its fallout, start to wish they'd just accept that what happened can't be changed, it's pointless to keep a grudge against people who are generations removed from those who could have prevented it, and move on.

California is the more common comparison, though the nationalist issues can trend more toward Texas. (Though California has its own fair deal of regional identity, no?)

Montreal itself is more San Fran than anything else, and Montreal is half the province.

And yes, French education in the provinces-that-aren't-Quebec is essentially a joke. We don't hold it against individual Canadians that they donT' speak french, we blame Canadian society for it

I'm ashamed to have to admit that Alberta is the most Texas-like province, and that's not a good thing.

As for French education, you have naturally familiarized yourself with every program and every immersion school from kindergarten to university across the entire country, to make that blanket statement? You do realize that in some regions the second-language emphasis is on aboriginal languages, or those most likely to be needed for future international workplaces (ie. Spanish, Japanese, various Asian languages)?

I always enjoyed learning French, I'm glad I can read as much of it as I can, I understand enough that when I'm listening to political speeches I wish the interpreter would shut up, and it's an essential part of our country's history. But there are parts of the country where it's just not relevant in everyday life.

Do you think it is absurd that Quebecois use Arrêt instead of Stop on stop-signs?

Is it any more absurd to see bilingual road signs everywhere else in the country? The road signs along the Trans-Canada Highway are bilingual. I remember having to translate for my grandmother when she got confused.

Oda Nobunaga, do you have English on all your foodstuffs from the grocery store, and on the packaging and instructions for everything else you buy? (when you're in Quebec)

 

[Tahuti]

Is it any more absurd to see bilingual road signs everywhere else in the country? The road signs along the Trans-Canada Highway are bilingual. I remember having to translate for my grandmother when she got confused

'Stop' is a word that also exists in French. In the French-speaking areas of Switzerland and Belgium, as well as France itself, 'Stop' is used instead of 'Arrêt.

 

[Valka D'Ur]

'Stop' is a word that also exists in French. In the French-speaking areas of Switzerland and Belgium, as well as France itself, 'Stop' is used instead of 'Arrêt.

Not along the Trans-Canada and other roads within the National Parks.

 

[Evie]

Do you think it is absurd that Quebecois use Arrêt instead of Stop on stop-signs?

Not at all. Québec is a french province, its signs are in actual french. Mexico, I'm given to understand, use the Spanish word. Japan use Japanese characters.

'Stop' is a word that also exists in French. In the French-speaking areas of Switzerland and Belgium, as well as France itself, 'Stop' is used instead of 'Arrêt.

It's a recent loanword from English, not an actual french language word (the actual french word is arrêt) that European french picked up (english loanwords, in France, seem to be the "sophisticated" thing. Needless to say, in Quebec it's perceived more as the uneducated thing). Since there was a perfectly valid French word and we didn't actually need the loanword, we stuck to our own signs.

It'S not like reading the words on the sign is somethign drivers really do. It's the red otagon with white lettering that matter to keeping the streets orderly.

Why?

Look, if somebody comes up to me on the street and greets me in French (never happened yet, but between the tourists, immigrants, and exchange students, it could happen), I will likely reply in English, out of habit. If, however, it's a case of the person genuinely having trouble with English, I will try to use French - but it would be difficult since my conversational French skills were never that great, and I haven't used them for about 30 years. I read French a lot better than I speak it, and have much more recent practice (not counting bilingual labels and instruction manuals on the stuff I buy).

Well, the initial phrasing was tongue-in-cheek to be honest.

Considering that the Middle East has never really been at peace for thousands of years, it's not that hard to understand that some people might hold a grudge dating back 250 years. Mind you, there does come a time when the modern neighbors, none of whom had anything to do with the original conflict and its fallout, start to wish they'd just accept that what happened can't be changed, it's pointless to keep a grudge against people who are generations removed from those who could have prevented it, and move on.

Like I said, it's more in the nature of a trauma than a grudge. We're not looking for payback against the present-day Canadian, or angry at them. It's more a mix of shame and helplessness.

The problem with Canada should be seen in that light - it's not what we hold against English Canadians, it's what serves to remind us of the Conquest. And a vision of Canada as an English country with a French minority is always going to remind us of that. Which is why we vastly prefer a vision of Canada, the bilingual French/English country.

As for French education, you have naturally familiarized yourself with every program and every immersion school from kindergarten to university across the entire country, to make that blanket statement?

A general impression based on discussing the issue with many recent (last 15 years or so) graduates of high schools in the rest of Canada. I know it'S not universal - we had a 6th grade french immersion student from BC as a house guest in the early 90s and his French then was excellent, and I've met some recent high school graduates from Ontario and Albera

But by and large, those people i've met have no thanks to give to the education system (if they do speak french), and generally blame the poor-quality education (if they don't). It's not an exhaustive study to be sure, and could certainly be wrong, but it's suggestive enough.

Again, there are exceptions in some advanced classes and immersion programs.

(I initially had a reply regarding the bit about Spanish, etc being taught, but other than to note I'm whole-heartedly in favor of treating regionally relevant aboriginal languages on a level with French/English, I think, knowing me, that it's perhaps best not to pursue that line of thought).

Oda Nobunaga, do you have English on all your foodstuffs from the grocery store, and on the packaging and instructions for everything else you buy? (when you're in Quebec)

The overwhelming majority for sure. I couldn't swear that it's every last foodstuff, but i suspect it's the case - my inclination is to think the federal government mandate food labeling.

For non-food thing, probably a few things that are intended for Quebec-only distribution may be french-only packaging but the overhwelming majority at the very least, and possibly more, is bilingual.

 

[Valka D'Ur]

Like I said, it's more in the nature of a trauma than a grudge. We're not looking for payback against the present-day Canadian, or angry at them. It's more a mix of shame and helplessness.

The problem with Canada should be seen in that light - it's not what we hold against English Canadians, it's what serves to remind us of the Conquest. And a vision of Canada as an English country with a French minority is always going to remind us of that. Which is why we vastly prefer a vision of Canada, the bilingual French/English country.

I don't have anything against the bilingual country, either. Before I started school, I watched Chez Helene on TV, I enjoyed the French classes in the city school I went to for 2 years, and after that I took every French class I could in junior high, senior high, and college. Heck, years after that, I ran into my old high school French teacher and when he found out I had a home typing business, he hired me to do legal papers for him - some of which were in French, so I was very glad I'd kept in practice with the reading, at least.

But some of the hostility you see from me in threads such as these comes from the language laws and the idea that one of the country's official languages is actually illegal in some circumstances. I cannot wrap my mind around the fact that ordinary store owners ended up in court because they had English signs on the outside of their store, or even inside. To me, that's obscene.

Here, I can advertise in any language I want - Klingonese, even. I wouldn't get much response to anything but English, but at least I wouldn't end up in court.

(I initially had a reply regarding the bit about Spanish, etc being taught, but other than to note I'm whole-heartedly in favor of treating regionally relevant aboriginal languages on a level with French/English, I think, knowing me, that it's perhaps best not to pursue that line of thought).

Thank NAFTA and the fact that we've had quite an influx of immigrants from countries like Costa Rica, Nicaragua, Guatemala, and Venezuela.

The overwhelming majority for sure. I couldn't swear that it's every last foodstuff, but i suspect it's the case - my inclination is to think the federal government mandate food labeling.

I still giggle when recalling my dad thinking a can of pineapple was really a can of bananas.