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But can social democracy be considered a step towards communism?

Tough question. Perhaps it can, because it "warms people up" to many of the ideas which a socialist society would necessitate: universal health care, heavily subsidized and/or free education, submitting the power of corporations to those of the people, and the social safety net. Or perhaps it can't, because enough people will be satisfied enough to not see a need, or be willing enough to fight for, any further change in the leftward direction. If there is any chance at capitalism being elected away, it is going to be through social democracy. On the other hand, social democracy is also capitalism's best chance at survival, because the more rigid it stays, the more retrograde it becomes, and the angrier people become with the system.

So in order to save capitalism, its protectors must edge closer towards socialism, which at the same time also threatens capitalism. It's kind of beautiful like that: no matter what, the boot is on their throat. :)
 
a teacher tossed out that under communism, no one wold be motivated to work because of lack of personal gain. Now, this sounds too simple to be a serious barrier, but is there a good and relatively brief response to it? Not that I subscribe to it personally, but it is a rather common attack against the system. Does it stem from a core misconception of what communism is?
 
But can social democracy be considered a step towards communism?
I think that what's significant about social democracy is not anything in the model itself, which is still in the most fundamental sense capitalistic, but that it (generally) implies a well-organised working class with the ability to fight for its collective interests, and who, like Cheezy said, demand a high enough share of the social product to make them more likely to confront capital. Which aspect is more important is debatable, and to be honest it probably varies from time to time and place to place.

a teacher tossed out that under communism, no one wold be motivated to work because of lack of personal gain. Now, this sounds too simple to be a serious barrier, but is there a good and relatively brief response to it? Not that I subscribe to it personally, but it is a rather common attack against the system. Does it stem from a core misconception of what communism is?
Well, I'd have two criticisms of this. Firstly, it assumes a very narrow concept of "personal gain", as something very direct and immediate. That may be true in communism, in which we sell our labour to others and so expect compensation there and then, but that isn't necessarily the case in communism, in which labour is employed collectively and its fruits distributed communally- a completely different way of approaching labour. You still get a return on your work, and you still get more from working harder and more efficiently, it's just a less direct way of getting there. (Or is it? Given the disjointedness of demands made and rewards given in the context of low-pay work, a lot of people would likely find communism more motivating even by the narrow assumptions of capitalism!)

Secondly, it makes some very questionable assumptions about what motivates humans in the first place. It may take substantial compensation to make you do unpleasant or tedious work over which you have no control, but can we assume the same when the people doing the work are also the ones calling the shots? (And not just on a workplace-by-workplace basis, but over society as a whole?) Without assuming that all work will become, overnight, a mere hobby, I would argue that putting people in control of their own work, and thus totally overturning their relationship to their work, will produce significant changes in attitude towards their work, throwing the assumptions made in the context of capitalism into disarray. This can even be seen in contemporary workers' cooperatives, which, even though existing within a capitalist system, report a significantly higher level of job satisfaction and worker morale. It doesn't surprise us to learn that the painter or musician works just for the love of the work, and we even accept that a baker or a teacher is in it for the work as much as for the pay-cheque; what, fundamentally, makes it impossible for us to make this true of all work?
 
a teacher tossed out that under communism, no one wold be motivated to work because of lack of personal gain.

I think the best response is to ask what she means by "personal gain". I think the use of the term suggests that she doesn't wish to imply that people always work for pay/wages, but in that case why would it make sense to assert that people would not work without a system of wage labour?
 
under communism, what do people strive for? what gives meaning and a sense of progress to their lives?

if it is seen as something positive and legitimate for people to compete at mental/artistic aims, why are material aims treated so differently?
 
under communism, what do people strive for? what gives meaning and a sense of progress to their lives?
What do people strive for under capitalism? Fundamentally? Not money, in my experience, that's just a means to an end for all but the most cartoonishly scroogey of people. Not even power, which is a similar means to an end for all but a pathologically afflicted few. So what?

And that question, and the lack of any easy answers to it, is why we have ethical philosophy. So while we could certainly have a crack at answering it, the question you're asking is not one that should be asked of reds alone.

if it is seen as something positive and legitimate for people to compete at mental/artistic aims, why are material aims treated so differently?
I'm not sure I follow this question; could you expand on what you mean by "competition", and by "mental/artistic" and "material" aims?
 
Although I am not a communist, to further elaborate on the "is Social Democracy a step toward Communism" question, the Frankfurt Declaration addressed that.
8. Communism falsely claims a share in the Socialist tradition. In fact it has distorted that tradition beyond recognition. It has built up a rigid theology which is incompatible with the critical spirit of Marxism.[3]
9. Where Socialists aim to achieve freedom and justice by removing the exploitation which divides men under capitalism, Communists seek to sharpen those class divisions only in order to establish the dictatorship of a single party.[3]
10. International Communism is the instrument of a new imperialism. Wherever it has achieved power it has destroyed freedom or the chance of gaining freedom. It is based on a militarist bureaucracy and a terrorist police. By producing glaring contrasts of wealth and privilege it has created a new class society. Forced labour plays an important part in its economic organisation.[3]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frankfurt_Declaration
 
Well, given that neither the Communists nor Social Democrats were using the term "communism" in anything like the sense we are doing, not really. :undecide:
 
Well, I'd have two criticisms of this. Firstly, it assumes a very narrow concept of "personal gain", as something very direct and immediate. That may be true in communism, in which we sell our labour to others and so expect compensation there and then, but that isn't necessarily the case in communism, in which labour is employed collectively and its fruits distributed communally- a completely different way of approaching labour. You still get a return on your work, and you still get more from working harder and more efficiently, it's just a less direct way of getting there. (Or is it? Given the disjointedness of demands made and rewards given in the context of low-pay work, a lot of people would likely find communism more motivating even by the narrow assumptions of capitalism!)

So a directly democratic community is the employer. How are you going to prevent democratically sanctioned helotry though? Imagine if the majority decides on forcing a(n ethnic) minority to perform what basically boils down to chattal slavery, then what? What kind of arrangements will have to be made to prevent this and how will these be enforced?
 
But actual current European social democracy could be considered a step towards communism?
 
So a directly democratic community is the employer. How are you going to prevent democratically sanctioned helotry though? Imagine if the majority decides on forcing a(n ethnic) minority to perform what basically boils down to chattal slavery, then what? What kind of arrangements will have to be made to prevent this and how will these be enforced?
Well, that's a question you could ask of any society, and capitalism doesn't have what you'd call a sparkling record in that regard. It's always a case of establishing and maintaining effective systems of counter-power- anti-power, even- that prevent the accumulation of authority. And I would argue that communism is better equipped to do so than any other system, because it doesn't provide the material basis for the emergence of any "natural" exploitative elite, in the sense of an elite which forms a necessary component of the social order. (And I think that it would have to be an elite doing this, because there are not- as far as I know- any examples of a society in which the majority collectively exploit a minority. The closest you get is patriarchal domestic relationships, and they are invariably a 1:>=1 deal.) Any such system would amount to very little than a single, continuous act of terrorism, a sort of drawn out bank-heist, and while there are certainly historical examples of this (a lot of tributary relationships are little more than this), I can't see that being at all sustainable in an advanced industrial society.

But actual current European social democracy could be considered a step towards communism?
In that case? No, I don't think so.
 
And I would argue that communism is better equipped to do so than any other system, because it doesn't provide the material basis for the emergence of any "natural" exploitative elite, in the sense of an elite which forms a necessary component of the social order. (And I think that it would have to be an elite doing this, because there are not- as far as I know- any examples of a society in which the majority collectively exploit a minority.

But it is a possibility of course, and the red-herring towards minority groups used by political parties both left and right suggest this possibility isn't as far-fetched as it sounds. And if the elite is defined as an upper-class, who is to say they can't form a majority?

On the other hand, having a minority to do all the dirty work may be perhaps not so expedient, economically speaking. Also, human labour may be in fact completely irrelevant if communism is brought about by the mechanisation of labour. What do you say?
 
Communism is a synthesis of capitalism and its anti-thesis (socialism?), right? Does that mean there is a free market in communism?
 
But it is a possibility of course, and the red-herring towards minority groups used by political parties both left and right suggest this possibility isn't as far-fetched as it sounds. And if the elite is defined as an upper-class, who is to say they can't form a majority?
Well, I can't really disprove a negative- that an exploiter-class can't constitute a majority- I just don't think that we have any reason to believe that this is a viable social order. In all the myriad forms of exploitation through history, there's never been a simple case of majority-exploiting-minority. Even when it appears that way, say the oppression of blacks in the Old South, there's actually a more complex class structure in place, in which the actual exploitation is being conducted by a very small elite mobilising the majority in its defence. (There's a reason that even the exclusively white labour unions were at their very weakest in the Old South!) The closet example I can bring to mind is the democratic state-ownership of slaves in Classical Greece, in which, firstly, the citizenry were still very much a minority of the total population, albeit a sometimes very sizeable one, and, secondly, state-ownership of slaves existed in the context of a much broader system of exploitation (of private slaves, women, peasant tenants, subaltern communities, etc.) by the city state.

So I guess what I'm saying is that while this sort of "herrenvolk communism" is conceivable, I don't really see how it would come about. It doesn't mean that it couldn't, I'll give you that, but I guess it's not something that I'm going to worry about until I actually see it becoming a possibility. And given the fact that class struggle invariably cuts across ethnic boundaries once it reaches a certain breath, throwing the old hierarchies into disarray, I tend to think that the very process of class struggle would preclude such an eventuality.

On the other hand, having a minority to do all the dirty work may be perhaps not so expedient, economically speaking. Also, human labour may be in fact completely irrelevant if communism is brought about by the mechanisation of labour. What do you say?
I'd say that there's an even more fundamental aspect than mechanisation: organisation. Capitalism has historically maintained its domination over labour by constantly reorganising the process of production, of increasing the structural dependence of labour on capital to actually produce- what Marx called the "real subsumption of labour under capital"- so any process of communisation would involve exploding these forms of organisation so utterly that the old logic of exploitation would cease to make function. The very process by which communism was brought about would make it impossible to herd people into factories at gun-point, because the factories simply wouldn't- couldn't- work that way any more. Perhaps there would be so new logic of exploitation available, something more sustainable than systematic extortion, but I can't think what it would be. (Which, again, doesn't mean it's impossible, but that we'll cross that bridge when we come to it.)

Communism is a synthesis of capitalism and its anti-thesis (socialism?), right? Does that mean there is a free market in communism?
There's a few points I have in response to this.
First, I'm aware that there's disagreement in this, I don't understand the thesis-antithesis-synthesis process going capital-socialism-communism. I think that represents a misapplication of the dialectic. The antithesis is something that exists alongside the thesis, and in fact something which is necessitated in the thesis itself. This isn't so of socialism. Instead, I would suggest that the process goes capital-labour-communism, labour being the necessary companion of capital, and that the synthesis, communism, emerges as the "real movement" of labour against capital, through which it pursues emancipation in the form of self-abolition.
Secondly, I don't think the association of "capitalism" and "free markets" is a sound one. "Free market", to the extent it means anything at all, is a particular set of economic policies orientated towards low intervention, free trade, etc., which have never been the norm of capitalist society. (Only in the last thirty years have "free market" forms predominated internationally, and even then inconsistently.) And even within these terms, the "freedom" of the "free market" masks the routine violence upon which capitalist society is necessarily predicated, upon which the process of commodity exchange as such is dependent. ("Come and see the violence inherent in the system!" So whatever freedoms the thesis of capitalism contributes to the synthesis of communism, the "free market" won't be among them.
 
Do you consider China Communist?
And Cuba?
And North Korea?
 
No, no and no. Of those countries, only China ever experienced even limited attempts by the working class to seize political power, and even that was quickly and violently stamped out by the Chinese Communist Party. The "socialism" of all three was in reality nothing more than heavily state-orientated form of post-colonial capitalism.
 
And Cuba? I mean, I want you to explain to me why it isn't a communist country.
 
Well, put it this way: does wage labour-exist in Cuba? Yes. Is wage-labour compatible with communism? No. Therefore, Cuba cannot be communist.

The theory can obviously get a bit more elaborate than that, specifically when trying to establish what a society like Cuba actually is, but that's the heart of the matter.
 
So I guess what I'm saying is that while this sort of "herrenvolk communism" is conceivable, I don't really see how it would come about. It doesn't mean that it couldn't, I'll give you that, but I guess it's not something that I'm going to worry about until I actually see it becoming a possibility. And given the fact that class struggle invariably cuts across ethnic boundaries once it reaches a certain breath, throwing the old hierarchies into disarray, I tend to think that the very process of class struggle would preclude such an eventuality.

This is a very important point. If communism fails to become what we think it will - an equal and classless society - then the class struggle which has driven history will continue until it does create such a society. It is rather like water flowing downhill, it's going to keep going until it reaches rock bottom.

There's a few points I have in response to this.
First, I'm aware that there's disagreement in this, I don't understand the thesis-antithesis-synthesis process going capital-socialism-communism. I think that represents a misapplication of the dialectic. The antithesis is something that exists alongside the thesis, and in fact something which is necessitated in the thesis itself. This isn't so of socialism. Instead, I would suggest that the process goes capital-labour-communism, labour being the necessary companion of capital, and that the synthesis, communism, emerges as the "real movement" of labour against capital, through which it pursues emancipation in the form of self-abolition.

I know that Edmund Wilson certainly thought so. And it does make sense, if you ignore the Hegelian influence on Marx. However, Marx was heavily influenced by Hegel, so I'm inclined to believe that he meant the anti-thesis of capitalism to be an era just as all other anti-theses have been.
 
Is that how the historical dialectic progresses in Hegel? I was given to understand that Hegel saw the thesis and anti-thesis as contradictory aspects of the same historical epoch rather than as successive epochs, the transition between epochs taking the form of a spiritual aufheben, overcoming, which in Marx's terms would be the contradictory aspects of the mode of production rather than successive modes of production, culminating in a material Aufheben, i,e. social revolution. This may simply be a matter of interpretation- the relationship between Hegel and Marxism isn't what you call entirely without controversy- but I really don't think it's a case of simply failing acknowledging the Hegelian influence on Marx. (I mean, a lot of what I'm talking about is drawing on the thought from and around the Aufheben journal, who kind of wear their Hegelian influences on their sleeve.)
 
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