Ask a Red, Second Edition

Status
Not open for further replies.
From the Ron Paul thread:

Traitorfish said:
"Free enterprise" isn't a discrete social condition, though, just a vague, largely rhetorical category. Private property is certainly a condition of this category as usually understood (although I'm sure that Proudhon would have some opinions on that), but that hardly constitutes a discrete state of being- they had private property in a lot of the Eastern Bloc, after all.
Who are "they"? Note that I do understand that Marxism dinstinguishes personal property (i.e. your clothes) from private property (which in Marxian terms is defined as means of production).

Also, why do you think free enterprise is vague? It simply means there are no legal barriers in the way of forming new businesses. Lack of free enterprise thus means legal hurdles in the way of forming new businesses, usually in the form of unecessary licensing rules, bureaucracy and taxation that drives small businesses to bankruptcy or outright ban of starting new businesses.

Traitorfish said:
What point needs clarification? My claim so far has been that capitalism, if we accept it as referring to a discrete economic formation, must have some generic form- either the positive "private property" one or the negative Marxian one- while Cryptic_Snow's "real capitalism" offers no such opportunities, instead merely representing the recession of the right of state interference to a state which he considered preferable, better termed as "free enterprise".
I'm not a Libertarian, like Cryptic_Snow is, as I do believe gov't regulation is necessary to promote the responsible use of property. I do think I begin to understand now what you are saying though.

Traitorfish said:
A Marxian understanding of communism isn't just state ownership, or even collective ownership, but the dissolution of market relations themselves. If Marx is correct, then it would be impossible for a post-market society to revert to capitalism, because it would not contain the social antagonisms necessary for an epoch of social reconstitution, i.e. a revolution to occur (or, at least, for an historically regressive revolution). (This historical occurrence is another symptom of the essentially capitalistic nature of the Marxist-Leninist regimes.)
Market relations are essentially exchanges, and vice versa. The Marxist-Leninist regimes ala the USSR you describe as Capitalistic attempted to partially abolish market relations by granting the state a monopoly in distributing money.
In a society that lives up fully to the tenets of Communism (that is, has no market relations), there is no such thing as money, and all peoples needs would be readily available. However, there is one very big problem: How are you going to make sure these needs are provided without resorting to coercion? Or do you think coercion would be justified?
 
I'd be curious as to how various 'reds' came to believe the way they do. I started working in a factory a few years after high school and realized straightaway the relationship between labor and ownership was exploitative. Later I read The Communist Manifesto as part of a personal project to read historically-significant books, and started a leftward shift that quickened as I continued to study sociology and philosophy.
 
I'd be curious as to how various 'reds' came to believe the way they do. I started working in a factory a few years after high school and realized straightaway the relationship between labor and ownership was exploitative. Later I read The Communist Manifesto as part of a personal project to read historically-significant books, and started a leftward shift that quickened as I continued to study sociology and philosophy.

Similar experience here except I worked in the food and beverage industry.
 
Is the concept of privacy included within mainstream communistic thought? If so, how is it regarded?
What do you mean by "privacy", exactly? Do you simply mean the conventional sense of people keeping their neb out other people's business?

Who are "they"? Note that I do understand that Marxism dinstinguishes personal property (i.e. your clothes) from private property (which in Marxian terms is defined as means of production).
Well, by "they" I just meant those societies generally, but I'll specify by saying that in most Easter Bloc properties, private property as a legal institution was fully retained, it simply happened that the state had certain monopolies on mass production. (Although very inconsistent ones- the expropriation of farmland, in particular, was largely conducted on political grounds, with the troublesome Junkers of East Germany being almost entirely expropriated, but the relatively passive landowners of Poland being left largely unmolested.) Hungary, famously, had what was more or less openly a market economy, simply one in which the majority of large firms were state-owned, and the non-aligned state of Yugoslavia had a similar "market socialist" system.

Also, why do you think free enterprise is vague? It simply means there are no legal barriers in the way of forming new businesses. Lack of free enterprise thus means legal hurdles in the way of forming new businesses, usually in the form of unecessary licensing rules, bureaucracy and taxation that drives small businesses to bankruptcy or outright ban of starting new businesses.
Because this, bolded, is not actually how the term is used, except perhaps by a handful of anarcho-capitalist purists. There are always some implicit hurdles- registration, limitations on what kind of business you can actually conduct, etc.- so it's simply used to refer to the elimination of those hurdles which the speaker considers, individually, to be unnecessary. A hardline social democrat could very easily use "free enterprise" in this same sense, if they were of the conviction that the "necessary" level of government intervention is considerable, they just don't, because it carries no rhetorical weight with their audience.

Market relations are essentially exchanges, and vice versa. The Marxist-Leninist regimes ala the USSR you describe as Capitalistic attempted to partially abolish market relations by granting the state a monopoly in distributing money.
In a society that lives up fully to the tenets of Communism (that is, has no market relations), there is no such thing as money, and all peoples needs would be readily available. However, there is one very big problem: How are you going to make sure these needs are provided without resorting to coercion? Or do you think coercion would be justified?
Well, this is where the bourgeois and Marxian conceptions of the market differ. The former entertains the market as simply representing the sum of all exchange, and therefore to be a universal and timeless phenomenon, while the latter poses it as a specific mechanism found within capitalist society. The key to this is the commodity, a particular form of exchanged good which is present in capitalist society, but absent in communist society. These videos explain what it better than I would be able to:


Link to video.

Link to video.

Also, for the record, the USSR was a market economy, simply one in which the state played an unusually large role. For all their bluster about "planning", it was still a society of commodity production and exchange, in which money circulated as it did in Western capitalism, and in which firms still competed for consumers to survive. Some of this was conducted "behind closed doors", granted- the front of a planned economy, for example, was maintained by the use of shadow prices in determining the exchange of goods between state owned firms, supposedly- but in the Marxian conception, rather than the essentially bourgeois conception favoured by the Stalin and his acolytes, a market none the less. The "socialism" of the USSR is best understood not as a contradiction to capitalism, but as a stage in the capitalist development of the countries that pursued it, one formula among many for rapid industrialisation; it's failure to actually be very good at this job is a comment on its conception and execution, rather than whether or not it actually filled it.
 
I'm thinking things like web anonymity, phone-tapping, and the like.
Oh, well, then, yeah, certainly privacy is important. Communism is properly a radically democratic, emancipatory form of self-government, so it presumes a certain substantial level of individual autonomy.
 
Because this, bolded, is not actually how the term is used, except perhaps by a handful of anarcho-capitalist purists. There are always some implicit hurdles- registration, limitations on what kind of business you can actually conduct, etc.- so it's simply used to refer to the elimination of those hurdles which the speaker considers, individually, to be unnecessary. A hardline social democrat could very easily use "free enterprise" in this same sense, if they were of the conviction that the "necessary" level of government intervention is considerable, they just don't, because it carries no rhetorical weight with their audience.
I didn't say all regulations in the way of forming businesses are unecessary, and neither do I think every unecessary regulation in the way of forming businesses means there is no free enterprise. I rather define free enterprise as a system wherein no one is practically barred to doing so. Hence, we both would consider the US a free enterprise system, while a hardcore libertarian would not.
However, you would consider China a free enterprise as well, even though few are truely able to do so. For me, China would be a limited free enterprise system, unlike the US.

Well, this is where the bourgeois and Marxian conceptions of the market differ. The former entertains the market as simply representing the sum of all exchange, and therefore to be a universal and timeless phenomenon, while the latter poses it as a specific mechanism found within capitalist society. The key to this is the commodity, a particular form of exchanged good which is present in capitalist society, but absent in communist society.
A commodity is a good without that normally are near identical to eachother, like gold or coffeebeans. But I think you simply want abolish market relations for at least these, no? However, my fear is that considering commodities will never be infinite, the lack of market forces will cause scarcity. I'm not saying it is impossible to prevent scarcity, but certainly more difficult. How are you going to prevent overuse of commodities without market relations?

Also, for the record, the USSR was a market economy, simply one in which the state played an unusually large role. For all their bluster about "planning", it was still a society of commodity production and exchange, in which money circulated as it did in Western capitalism, and in which firms still competed for consumers to survive. Some of this was conducted "behind closed doors", granted- the front of a planned economy, for example, was maintained by the use of shadow prices in determining the exchange of goods between state owned firms, supposedly- but in the Marxian conception, rather than the essentially bourgeois conception favoured by the Stalin and his acolytes, a market none the less. The "socialism" of the USSR is best understood not as a contradiction to capitalism, but as a stage in the capitalist development of the countries that pursued it, one formula among many for rapid industrialisation; it's failure to actually be very good at this job is a comment on its conception and execution, rather than whether or not it actually filled it.
The USSR was at large not a market economy, since in practically all cases, the state both supplied and demanded.
There was no free enterprise, as the state was determined by law to be the sole supplier of everything within the Soviet Union. Neither was there such thing as consumer demand as the USSR set prices, wages and was the sole source of the money supply. Thus, market forces were laid still. Imagine one guy who supplies himself of everything he needs: He is not involved in market relations of any kind. The USSR would be a somewhat same story, except it is a state.
Now there were some windows of time in which some market economic activity was allowed in the USSR: The New economic policy which temporarily allowed free enterprise in the agricultural sector (because poor planning policies led to severe famines) and several reforms instituted by Krushev to allow for unequal wages (to promote production). And there might be some competition as well, though this would probably have some very strong political undertones, since no firm would come into existence without the state's say so.

That all said, I do understand the USSR was very far off your interpretation of Communism which doesn't feature money nor authoritarian leadership.
 
I didn't say all regulations in the way of forming businesses are unecessary, and neither do I think every unecessary regulation in the way of forming businesses means there is no free enterprise. I rather define free enterprise as a system wherein no one is practically barred to doing so. Hence, we both would consider the US a free enterprise system, while a hardcore libertarian would not.
However, you would consider China a free enterprise as well, even though few are truely able to do so. For me, China would be a limited free enterprise system, unlike the US.
As I said, I don't consider the term "free enterprise" to be an objective category. It's a subjective designation, and a largely rhetorical one. There are varying degrees of state-imposed fetters on business activity, but I don't see in that any discrete economic formations.

A commodity is a good without that normally are near identical to eachother, like gold or coffeebeans.
The Marxian usage of "commodity" is different, as the videos explain. It refers to any good which is produced for the market; their homogeneity is established in the form of exchange-value, not in any physical property.

But I think you simply want abolish market relations for at least these, no? However, my fear is that considering commodities will never be infinite, the lack of market forces will cause scarcity. I'm not saying it is impossible to prevent scarcity, but certainly more difficult. How are you going to prevent overuse of commodities without market relations?
How would you prevent it with market relations? By limiting individual consumption. Communism at least is able to do this consciously and rationally, rather than purely by accident. The current levels of pollution, i.e. the over-consumption of the natural environment rather neatly illustrate the incompetence of capitalism in this area.

This part I'm going to have to address point by point.
The USSR was at large not a market economy, since in practically all cases, the state both supplied and demanded.
Not in reality, no. Firstly, the individual citizens of the USSR still constituted consumers set apart from any productive enterprise, and the relationship between them and the state was one characterised by market exchange.
Secondly, the state monopoly on production (whole, as in the USSR, or partial, as in the various Eastern Bloc states) was not in practice the monopoly of actual government institutions, but of state-owned enterprises, very much like the Western equivalent- the US Postal Service, say, or the old National Coal Board in Britain. These, despite being owned wholesale by the state, still operated within a market, with both end-consumers and with each other.

There was no free enterprise,as the state was determined by law to be the sole supplier of everything within the Soviet Union.
Hardly necessary. After all, there was no free enterprise in Britain during much of WW2, but I doubt that period would be regarded as a vacation for the market. Even a less exceptional example, such as the retention of state control and extension of state ownership to the coal mines in the UK in the years immediately following WW2 didn't constitute an actual break from the market, merely a particular formation within the market. State-protected, state-subsidised, and with a state-ensured monopoly, sure, but then neither of those are unheard of in private enterprise, either. It's just a matter of degrees.

Neither was there such thing as consumer demand as the USSR set prices, wages...
Individual state firms did, yes, and while this was nominally in response to plans being passed down from on high, that doesn't mean that it was . And even if it was- and it should certainly be admitted that the ham-fisted bureaucracy managed to deviate from the realistic more than a few times- that's just them cocking it up, not an actual departure from market relations as understood by Marx.

...and was the sole source of the money supply.
Isn't that true of all states? :huh:

Thus, market forces were laid still. Imagine one guy who supplies himself of everything he needs: He is not involved in market relations of any kind. The USSR would be a somewhat same story, except it is a state.
But the USSR was a major international trading power. Not quite as active as some of the leading Western states, granted, and more prone to cultivating a would-be-autarky in its political spheres of influence, but never self-sufficient. And so even if that was a defining aspect- and I don't think it was, because state borders do not define a society- it wouldn't apply in this case.

Now there were some windows of time in which some market economic activity was allowed in the USSR: The New economic policy which temporarily allowed free enterprise in the agricultural sector (because poor planning policies led to severe famines) and several reforms instituted by Krushev to allow for unequal wages (to promote production).
Well, in the Marxian understanding, the very fact that these windows existed is a sign that market relations existed all along. You can't just transition from socialism to capitalism willy nilly, its a socially revolutionary epoch from which there is no return, the fundamental remaking of all relations of production. The very fact that it was possible for the USSR to return to capitalism at all suggests, to Marxists (or at least those who've read Marx) that it was always capitalist, merely a particularly bloated, statist, inefficient capitalism.

And there might be some competition as well, though this would probably have some very strong political undertones, since no firm would come into existence without the state's say so.
Well, competition was complicated, and often rather shadowy; the tricks and turns involved can make the details difficult to understand for those who don't have a very firm grasp of the internal working of the USSR- and I don't include myself in that category. In some forms it was traditional, such as the competition between state farms, which were generally operated in practice as middling-sized enterprises under only loose collective management- often closer to a particularly nosy regulatory body than to genuine state management- or the competition between the producers of luxury goods (either between each other, say cigarettes vs. coffee, or between different state-owned producers of the same type of product, each with an output of a different variety or quality- they even had advertising campaigns!). In others, it was more subtle, and took the form of vying for state investment, the state functioning in practice as a hive-mind bourgeoisie upon which all individual corporations (after all, the distinction between capitalist and company was already quite clear by 1917), by attempting to demonstrate the greatest potential for the accumulation of capital. Some concious attempts at planning went into this, sure, in the same way that the US government "plans" production by investing in, say, military manufacturers, but a lot of it was the same blind stumbling around in pursuit of capital accumulation that you saw in any openly market economy, and, if anything, the fetishisation of planning really just served to hamper this accumulation- there's a reason that those post-colonial "socialisms" that left room for more opportunistic and/or foreign investment, as in India or Dengist China, proved to be more successful.

That all said, I do understand the USSR was very far off your interpretation of Communism which doesn't feature money nor authoritarian leadership.
Not merely mine, but Marx's. That's the key. ;)
 
My friends, I feel like this thread is moving away somewhat from its intended focus.

Yes, this is an Ask A Red thread, where you can bring any and all questions to your friendly neighborhood communists, and any sort of constructive lines of inquiry are most certainly welcomed. However, we are moving away from our areas of expertise and largely focusing on the shape of things to come. It is no longer about what a communist believes, but rather what a communist thinks might happen or wants to happen. Because you are comrades, I will draw no punches in saying: this is all speculative nonsense. You, we, are wasting our time and breath speculating about the future. Who knows what the future will bring. The great thing about socialism is that it is as evolutionary as it is revolutionary: you can't predict it, outside of very general guidelines, because it's either going to be a product of what very specific people holding the reigns of power shape it to be, or it's going to be an organic construct by the people who comprise the society where it forms. There is a certain distance into the future, beyond which speculation is snake-oil selling, and all this about the intricacies of the socialist economy, much less those about a communist one, are impossible to know. How many of us have seen a post-commodity society? I know that I can barely even imagine it. Besides, we make a grave error by positing these predictions: by deciding beforehand how society will be, how are we any less foolish than the Utopians?

It is, of course, natural to ask these sorts of questions, and they are certainly the most popular subject of inquiry, but we need to regulate ourselves and show discipline in admitting that we don't and can't know the future, so most of these questions are pointless and impossible to answer. Let us restrict ourselves to the things we do know: political, economic, and social theories about the present and past. As a famous Soviet economist once quipped: we are experts in capitalist social economy, not socialist social economy. There is much to be said about socialist political economy, but only extant.

EDIT: In fact, I'm assigning all of you homework. Read The Iron Heel by Jack London. Here is an e-book version for those who cannot acquire tangible copies: http://www.jacklondons.net/writings/IronHeel/toc.html. I think a little perspective is required, about just where we stand and just how incredibly wrong things can go.
 
Fair points, and with that in mind all of my previous comments should be mentally amended with the qualifier that these are merely my best guess at the broad terms of an organisational form which would be effective in the short term, with form of technology broadly similar to what we have now (and there's a folly if there ever was one), and should in no way be taken as fairly declarations that X will be Y.
 
Yay Jack London. Now there's a homework assignment that I can endorse. Is it anything like The Dream of Debs?
 
Isn't that true of all states [that the state is the sole source of money]?
Not really no, in most of today's capitalist countries, most money originate from commercial banks who are allowed to create money based on the amount of savings they have been entrusted. That is called fractional reserve banking. In effect, banks nearly the double the amount of savings to be able to lend more.


Okay, I'm beginning to understand how of Communists think of Communism: It strives to abolish market relations, which it considers to be defining of Capitalism (whereas proponents of Capitalism consider private property to be defining of Capitalism).

However, wouldn't that be actually a regression? The Hunter-gatherer societies among humanity hadn't market relations because they didn't need so, as they only gathered some food, made clothing and not much more than that. Doesn't the fact that market relations were introduced despite they once didn't existed among humanity basically invalidate Marx's claims that there is no turning back once market relations are abolished?
 
The Iron Heel is a fantastic recommendation. London pretty much predicts fascism, and his main character explains Marxist social/economic criticism to lay readers.
 
Isn't that true of all states [that the state is the sole source of money]?
Not really no, in most of today's capitalist countries, most money originate from commercial banks who are allowed to create money based on the amount of savings they have been entrusted. That is called fractional reserve banking. In effect, banks nearly the double the amount of savings to be able to lend more.
Ah, fair enough. Showing my ignorance of the ins-and-outs of it there.

Okay, I'm beginning to understand how of Communists think of Communism: It strives to abolish market relations, which it considers to be defining of Capitalism (whereas proponents of Capitalism consider private property to be defining of Capitalism).

However, wouldn't that be actually a regression? The Hunter-gatherer societies among humanity hadn't market relations because they didn't need so, as they only gathered some food, made clothing and not much more than that. Doesn't the fact that market relations were introduced despite they once didn't existed among humanity basically invalidate Marx's claims that there is no turning back once market relations are abolished?
Marx does actually identify hunter-gatherer societies as communistic, yes, so you're not at all wrong in making that observation. However, Marx draws a distinction between the "primitive communism" which he studied (second-hand, of course) in the surviving hunter-gatherer peoples of the world, and and what you might call the "advanced communism" to succeed capitalism. Primitive communism is a necessary form of organisation in a subsistence society, the only way that hunter-gatherer bands can rationally organise themselves without endangering the integrity of the kinship group- and thus of endangering them all as individuals. As a material surplus is developed, social structures are able to become more stratified and more individualised, and for trade and commodity production to emerge, eventually leading to the generalisation of commodity production, i.e. communism. Advanced communism, in contrast, is what emerges when the inherent contradiction of capitalist society, the antagonistic relationship between labour and capital, resolves itself in the negation of class society, of private property, and of money, something which requires a certain level of technological advancement to be viable. It represents a form of social organisation brought about by tremendous material scarcity, but one brought about by a tremendous material surplus; the means by which commodity exchange emerged from primitive communist society are no longer available, because that level of material scarcity is no longer present. You could certainly describe this as humanity coming in a certain sense full circle- and there's reason to believe, from Marx's ethnological notes, that he held such a view- but it would not be a regression, because it would not represent a retreat from capitalism, but capitalism being taken to its logical, self-destructive conclusions.
 
Marx does actually identify hunter-gatherer societies as communistic, yes, so you're not at all wrong in making that observation. However, Marx draws a distinction between the "primitive communism" which he studied (second-hand, of course) in the surviving hunter-gatherer peoples of the world, and and what you might call the "advanced communism" to succeed capitalism. Primitive communism is a necessary form of organisation in a subsistence society, the only way that hunter-gatherer bands can rationally organise themselves without endangering the integrity of the kinship group- and thus of endangering them all as individuals. As a material surplus is developed, social structures are able to become more stratified and more individualised, and for trade and commodity production to emerge, eventually leading to the generalisation of commodity production, i.e. communism. Advanced communism, in contrast, is what emerges when the inherent contradiction of capitalist society, the antagonistic relationship between labour and capital, resolves itself in the negation of class society, of private property, and of money, something which requires a certain level of technological advancement to be viable. It represents a form of social organisation brought about by tremendous material scarcity, but one brought about by a tremendous material surplus; the means by which commodity exchange emerged from primitive communist society are no longer available, because that level of material scarcity is no longer present. You could certainly describe this as humanity coming in a certain sense full circle- and there's reason to believe, from Marx's ethnological notes, that he held such a view- but it would not be a regression, because it would not represent a retreat from capitalism, but capitalism being taken to its logical, self-destructive conclusions.

So in short, the very thing that led to the birth of Capitalism (material surplusses) will also be its doom? However, what about the possibility that economic history will be a perpetual cycle of Communism, Feudalism, Capitalism and then beginning once again with Communism?
 
So in short, the very thing that led to the birth of Capitalism (material surplusses) will also be its doom? However, what about the possibility that economic history will be a perpetual cycle of Communism, Feudalism, Capitalism and then beginning once again with Communism?
Because in a materialistic conception of history, the evolution of the social form of production is informed by the capacity of material production. A communist society which has achieved a large, communistically distributed surplus, even a state of post-scarcity, is incapable of giving birth to the small scale commodity production and exchange that leads to capitalism.

(And, for the record, I'd note that Marx himself rejected a deterministic "communism > feudalism > capitalism" evolution. A more accurate generalisation would be "communism > small-scale commodity production > generalised commodity production (i.e. capitalism)"; feudalism is just the particular social formation which allowed capitalism to emerge in our history.)
 
The most succinct summary of Marxism ever devised. :hatsoff:
I haven't read The Communist Manifesto in a while, but doesn't Marx spend half of the book waxing about how awsome capitalism is and how its abolition of serfdom and other feudal remnants are prep-work for communism? I may be confusing it with Capital though, which I have not read, not even been inclined to see if the local library has it.
 
Because in a materialistic conception of history, the evolution of the social form of production is informed by the capacity of material production. A communist society which has achieved a large, communistically distributed surplus, even a state of post-scarcity, is incapable of giving birth to the small scale commodity production and exchange that leads to capitalism.

Lack of material scarcity doesn't mean it can solelyexist outside of market relations. Intellectual property is a good example of it: The software itself isn't scarce, the right to use it is. So even a hypothetical post-scarcity society can be subjected to market relations, whether that is necessary or not. And what would happen if a post-scarcity or even a massive surplus society are simply not feasible?
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top Bottom