Tahuti
Writing Deity
- Joined
- Nov 17, 2005
- Messages
- 9,492
From the Ron Paul thread:
Also, why do you think free enterprise is vague? It simply means there are no legal barriers in the way of forming new businesses. Lack of free enterprise thus means legal hurdles in the way of forming new businesses, usually in the form of unecessary licensing rules, bureaucracy and taxation that drives small businesses to bankruptcy or outright ban of starting new businesses.
In a society that lives up fully to the tenets of Communism (that is, has no market relations), there is no such thing as money, and all peoples needs would be readily available. However, there is one very big problem: How are you going to make sure these needs are provided without resorting to coercion? Or do you think coercion would be justified?
Who are "they"? Note that I do understand that Marxism dinstinguishes personal property (i.e. your clothes) from private property (which in Marxian terms is defined as means of production).Traitorfish said:"Free enterprise" isn't a discrete social condition, though, just a vague, largely rhetorical category. Private property is certainly a condition of this category as usually understood (although I'm sure that Proudhon would have some opinions on that), but that hardly constitutes a discrete state of being- they had private property in a lot of the Eastern Bloc, after all.
Also, why do you think free enterprise is vague? It simply means there are no legal barriers in the way of forming new businesses. Lack of free enterprise thus means legal hurdles in the way of forming new businesses, usually in the form of unecessary licensing rules, bureaucracy and taxation that drives small businesses to bankruptcy or outright ban of starting new businesses.
I'm not a Libertarian, like Cryptic_Snow is, as I do believe gov't regulation is necessary to promote the responsible use of property. I do think I begin to understand now what you are saying though.Traitorfish said:What point needs clarification? My claim so far has been that capitalism, if we accept it as referring to a discrete economic formation, must have some generic form- either the positive "private property" one or the negative Marxian one- while Cryptic_Snow's "real capitalism" offers no such opportunities, instead merely representing the recession of the right of state interference to a state which he considered preferable, better termed as "free enterprise".
Market relations are essentially exchanges, and vice versa. The Marxist-Leninist regimes ala the USSR you describe as Capitalistic attempted to partially abolish market relations by granting the state a monopoly in distributing money.Traitorfish said:A Marxian understanding of communism isn't just state ownership, or even collective ownership, but the dissolution of market relations themselves. If Marx is correct, then it would be impossible for a post-market society to revert to capitalism, because it would not contain the social antagonisms necessary for an epoch of social reconstitution, i.e. a revolution to occur (or, at least, for an historically regressive revolution). (This historical occurrence is another symptom of the essentially capitalistic nature of the Marxist-Leninist regimes.)
In a society that lives up fully to the tenets of Communism (that is, has no market relations), there is no such thing as money, and all peoples needs would be readily available. However, there is one very big problem: How are you going to make sure these needs are provided without resorting to coercion? Or do you think coercion would be justified?