Ask A Red: The IVth International

Status
Not open for further replies.
Also, Cheezy, that post on socialists being backward vs forward looking was an amazing post. I really respect your writing there. Interestingly, it's a lot of society that is doing that, ever since we've had the combined worldwide profitability slowdown and fiscal austerity starting in the 1970s and lasting through today. ("But Reagan ballooned the deficit! And the 90s weren't so bad! And the deficits were huge under Bush II!" yes and those are all red herrings.) It's why back in the 1960s people were interested in government increasing its investment in the public good, because their wages were going up and futures were bright, but by the 1980s, when it leveled off, people were looking backward and wanted to make sure taxes were low because things weren't looking any brighter moving forward.

And that is how we know that our society is not in a lull, it is in active decay. We are glorifying our past, not our future (not just in politics, but in culture as well! When was the last time a truly original movie came along? How many songs today include samples of famous classic songs? Everyone justifies themselves based upon characters or ideals from the past, and those who think about the future are embarrassing and shamed). Capitalism has outrun itself.
 
Personally, from within a capitalism framework, I haven't found any socialist literature compelling on valuing the labor contribution of all things the entrepreneur does that his or her employees do not.
I don't think it is even possible to put a value on it. Both efforts, the worker's efforts and the entrepreneur's efforts, are just different sides of the same coin. I would say pretty much all we have is the vague idea, that the one who started a business in the first place somehow deserves more material gain than a worker for the business-starter obviously put up with the more demanding and risky task.
But how much more that should be? I don't think we have any standard to judge that. The only way to decide this is mediation. Or the brutal fight for economic gain. Mediation seems preferable.
But within the system, quite frankly I'd like to be able to start firms and not have to automatically become democratic equals with my first employees with regards to owning what would be my passion and brainchild. :shrug:
I see what you mean and I myself would share this preference in this particular personal situation. But on the other hand, having to come to terms with your employees must not be all bad. They will just as you have a principle interest in the success of the business. They just as you will still have to compete against other businesses.
Yeah, it is a greater hassle for the entrepreneur, but is it by extension bad overall?
When discussing the aforementioned outside of a capitalist context, it's not even relevant. As Traitorfish wrote in the recent libertarianism thread, from his vantage point the entire wage-system is violent and oppressive.
Yeah well, if we can not discuss what would replace capitalism and if we can not discuss how to improve capitalism - what is there left to discuss?
 
edit: x-post

@Cheezy: I see and partially agree with your point, but will counter it by raising you an Amon Tobin live show experience, and that it's not capitalism itself that's burnt out but rather our particular political economy (spoiler alert: neoliberalism), because really all we need is much smarter fiscal policy and it can go on being friendly ol' progressive capitalism we all grew to love (as we blacklisted the communists) and society will function again.
 
Mandated by whom? The state? It would take some pretty extraordinary circumstances for the ruling class to require its antipodal class to obtain membership in the organizations which will end their ruling privileges!
In principle, the employed could simply vote for it :confused:
 
The ruling class *and its supporters*. Pinochet's fascist Chile saw support from many middle class members of the Junta's enfranchised. But it wasn't an economic process that did that, it's a political process. Allow me to entertain:

1) Wages
Any wage level of any actor inherently moves the rest of the market towards that wage level. When a union bargains better pay, it actually raises the general wage level of the macro economy minus the union! In other words, the average wages of non-union workers rises when unions exist.

There's a few mechanisms but one you can graphically visualize is that the union has just forced the firm to raise its demand for labor.

Because, as I'm describing, wages are not a zero-sum game, this causes other firms to have to compete for labor. The firm with the union now damn sure wants new hires to be worth the money. But other firms are not going to give up so easy, now they have to bid UP.

The money for these wage increases comes mainly from the unemployment of other workers (and to a much lesser extent from the thinning of profit margins by companies).

2) Employment
The workweek has never, in America, shortened without political intervention. Improved technology in a classical capitalist system (like, before progressivism and unions etc) always lead to longer workweeks. The preferred method of the classic capitalist is to hire as few people to do as much work as possible. This leaves lots of unemployed hungry people eager to take jobs before they die. In turn, it means those who have jobs have virtually no bargaining power, and take high risk, long workweek, low pay jobs. Hooray gilded age! And what happens when you are working 98 hour weeks for subsistence pay? You don't have the energy to better your circumstance. It's the lukewarm bath from hell. Too cold to get out, but you hate every second of it.

Unions have no incentive to keep unemployment high. It eats at their backsides, hardcore.

Fortunately, unionism leads to improved employment! What happens when the capitalist needs 100 man hours a week but can only employ each person for 40? Instead of hiring one person to slave away, he hires two or three. Two or three who now have the time and energy to maintain worker mobilization to keep the union alive.

It means fewer hungry reserve labor force people bidding down wages. It means more people can get the jobs.

While I agree companies want to spend the lowest amount of their money on labor as possible, there is no reason for them to necessarily hire fewer people unless they are required by law to provide benefits to every worker. Especially considering that as workers fatigue, they work more inefficiently.

3) Macroeconomics and the investment schedule
With wages up
With employment up
With leisure time increased (shorter workweeks)

You have effectively created both the financial and the time-means for people to consume more. All employment is driven by investment, but all investment is driven by future consumption expectations. Future consumption expectations are most driven by present consumption circumstances.

Basically, aggregate demand has increased due to unionism, which results in increased consumption, leads to further employment and improved competition for labor which leads to more increased consumption, which leads to greater aggregate demand, etc., all the while increasing investment until you reach asymptotic levels of employment (full employment).

Well, you won't actually reach and maintain full employment in the capitalist system without constant government stimulus, but unionism brings capitalism a whole lot closer.
By full employment do you mean the literal definition or the definition generally used by economists?

If the former, in theory it is never possible to reach even with government stimulus.

If the latter, then it can be reached without government stimulus...?

http://www.cengage.com/economics/tomlinson/transcripts/8487.pdf

A rather moderate approach to it I think.

I just want to note that you are making the argument that unions increase both employment and wages. This requires the creation of wealth (somewhat magically I think). Whereas I am making the argument that unions shift wealth, increasing wages and decreasing employment, so without the creation of wealth.

And considering you can't increase wealth without increased land, labor, capital, or technology I'm not sure what the unions are doing that somehow does it.
 
In Germany, you would have to get 2000 signatures in a state and then people in that state can vote your party into the national parliament.
Its a bit more difficult in the US it seems, but suppose a majority of the voting population actually wanted mandated unions. You don't think that would then also stand a chance to come true? I do.
 
http://www.cengage.com/economics/tomlinson/transcripts/8487.pdf

A rather moderate approach to it I think.

I just want to note that you are making the argument that unions increase both employment and wages. This requires the creation of wealth (somewhat magically I think). Whereas I am making the argument that unions shift wealth, increasing wages and decreasing employment, so without the creation of wealth.

And considering you can't increase wealth without increased land, labor, capital, or technology I'm not sure what the unions are doing that somehow does it.

What are you defining as wealth?
 
In Germany, you would have to get 2000 signatures in a state and then people in that state can vote your party into the national parliament.
Its a bit more difficult in the US it seems, but suppose a majority of the voting population actually wanted mandated unions. You don't think that would then also stand a chance to come true? I do.

I live in this country, and I know for a fact that just because the majority wants something doesn't mean it'll happen. The "elected" elite don't care about public opinion. If public opinion goes against them, they'll just invent new "facts" about what public opinion is and spout them as talking points until they believe it themselves.
 
x-post
If people wanted to they could organize a third party. If enough stood behind the new party's main goal of mandated unions the new party could come to be the one which makes laws, no?
I realize that all that would mean a lot of hassle and that it would be a burdensome road, but the US is a democracy.
 
x-post
If people wanted to they could organize a third party. If enough stood behind the new party's main goal of mandated unions the new party could come to be the one which makes laws, no?
I realize that all that would mean a lot of hassle and that it would be a burdensome road, but the US is a democracy.

No, they couldn't, because the US is not a democracy, it's a republic, and a pretty horribly perverted one at that. The system depends upon a two-party dichotomy. No real challenger would be allowed to attain significant sway that would displace either party, unless one of them completely collapsed somehow. But the party that would rise to take its place would have to agree with the ruling class consensus.

Remember that the ruling class owns the voting machines and counts the votes. They control the courts and the police. It is delusional to expect them to allow their privilege to be voted away, or even seriously hampered. It happened once in American history, and that's because we were fighting the biggest war in history and required social harmony to keep the factories turning out guns and tanks, and the fields wheat and corn. Capital was very careful to remove that position of strength from labor's repertoire after their pacification was no longer required.
 
Not a fact in evidence. The US is only 6.4% of its private workforce in unions, and we have the most out-if-work people in our history.
I suppose absolutely it is the highest in our history, but relatively? No. You must not recall US history very far.

China, whatever you want to say about them, requires all manufacturers to allow unions, and China has far fewer unemployed.
Because comparing completely different economies is fair eh?
Plus, while real wages in the US have gone DOWN 7% in the last ten years. Incomes for Chinese workers has gone UP 9% annually from 2000 to 2005, and up 19% annually from 2005 on.


Unions = employment.

Read it here, in the Economist:
http://www.economist.com/news/speci...es-are-moving-their-manufacturing-back-united

This article points out that because wages are falling in the US and they are climbing in China that jobs are coming back to the US.
http://gyazo.com/07450c3817ccfb9cc0ad0a380e1a6fad
Your article states that unions mostly hurt job growth. The following paragraph does state that SOMETIMES unions are willing to let wages fall in order to allow for job growth. But without these unions the wages would already be at the correct levels or approaching them.

Sent via mobile; apologies for any mistakes.

Check the bold, mate.
 
@Cheezy
It IMO is a democracy because it has a democratic chain of legitimacy as well as certain important basic rights associated with the living of a democracy. Moreover, my understanding of the term republic seems to differ from yours as well, as I would never say "x is a republic, not a democracy" as to me, those two terms describe different aspects of a state altogether. But be that as it may, this is not what we were actually discussing, so to get back to that:
How would be no real challenger to the established parties "allowed"? It is not some kind of law that the US only has the two established parties after all. I can certainly see how in the US it is extraordinary difficult to challenge the established parties, I can even sort of guess how the police and courts could make it all the more difficult, but not how it is not or could be not allowed :confused:
Remember that the ruling class owns the voting machines and counts the votes.
Unless by outright ricking the voting perhaps. But I honestly don't see why that is something we have to or even should presume. That seems to suggest that the moment mandated unions would become some sort of possibility the US would immediately turn into some sort of dictatorship. Isn't that a bit ... presumptuous?
 
I believe the original "question" was "What makes union-busting fascist," and I believe we have answered that.

If you want to debate the relative merits of unions, start your
Own thread. But keep in mind that you owe to unions and union struggles the following, at least:

1. The weekend: yes, until the 1840s the standard work week was 7 days. Miners lead the fight to get Sundays off. The five-day week standard was a result of union organizing.
2. Getting children out of the factories and mines.
3. A minimum wage.

Keep in mind, also, that American manufacturing was at it MOST profitable when workers received a greater percentage of the output dollar (peak was 39% for auto worker).

It was labor unions in England that kept her Majesty from intervening on the South's side during the War Between the States.

As Hygro pointed out, when labor did well, so did capital. But these are extraordinary times where capital fetishizes on money and uses money to make money -- without production. In those instances, capitalists can not afford to pay all workers enough to live, as there is no production to support it.

Which nation has the largest national debt? The US, n'est pas?

Sent via mobile; apologies for any mistakes.
 
The value of all assets in an economy I guess?

Which if you have higher employment AND wages must increase?

Precisely. Using the definition of money value of assets, increasing labor's share of the wealth increases aggregate demand which *is* the measure of the driver of wealth in the economy.

I read the article you linked, interesting to me as the guy is from Acton where I was once considering aiming myself. He makes a microeconomic point and scales it to the macroeconomy which is a common fallacy. Conventional economics is on his side, that the labor demand curve turns vertical at the limiting wage, but I would suggest instead of just a kink, it shifts the entire curve. Remember, demand is the ability + willingness to pay for a certain quantity at price. That's micro demand btw, macro demand is different. That means a union could bargain its way such that a firm isn't trying to adjust to wages and employment volume based on old conditions (and therefore old demand curve) but based on new conditions--the firm may be full willing to pay more at all quantities once it agrees to union terms.

The author's argument also presupposes a firm in competition (and tacitly in perfect competition). His argument breaks on one of two different ends, both inside the models he's using. Either the union puts the firm out of business, period. Or the firm shrinks its operations but then another firm picks up the slack and hires the unemployed workers. It's actually the former in perfect competition assuming basic micro models, but that doesn't happen in real life so those aren't the right models to use.
 
I believe the original "question" was "What makes union-busting fascist," and I believe we have answered that.
I'm just trying to point out that there are purely capitalist reasons for busting most all unions. And if there are purely capitalist reasons for busting all unions, then it is not a fascist move, just something fascists do because as some of you have said, capitalism is close to fascism. Or something like that.

If you want to debate the relative merits of unions, start your
Own thread. But keep in mind that you owe to unions and union struggles the following, at least:

1. The weekend: yes, until the 1840s the standard work week was 7 days. Miners lead the fight to get Sundays off. The five-day week standard was a result of union organizing.
2. Getting children out of the factories and mines.
3. A minimum wage.
There are a lot of people out there against minimum wage and believe child labor laws should be more lax.
Keep in mind, also, that American manufacturing was at it MOST profitable when workers received a greater percentage of the output dollar (peak was 39% for auto worker).
When is this supposed time that American manufacturing was most profitable? You aren't proving causation here.

It was labor unions in England that kept her Majesty from intervening on the South's side during the War Between the States.
While they were other reasons, I'm fairly certain the primary reason was that the British did not get involved because the British had access to Egyptian cotton so a war ravaging the South did not harm them.

Which nation has the largest national debt? The US, n'est pas?

Absolutely? Sure. Relatively? No. I don't understand why you guys use absolute statistics when relative statistics are much better.
 
Precisely. Using the definition of money value of assets, increasing labor's share of the wealth increases aggregate demand which *is* the measure of the driver of wealth in the economy.

How can you create new wealth without more land, labor, capital, or technology though? Shifting wealth does not create any more of these things.

How do firms afford to pay all their workers more if unions negotiate higher wages? You are insisting aggregate demand is increased but this only happens if firms pay their employees higher wages AND do not lay off any employees, which doesn't happen because creation of wealth is not magic.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top Bottom