Ask A Red V: The Five-Year Plan

I asked a question, and the answer is: this is a Q&A thread. How enlightening. This is precisely the type of non-answers I was referring to earlier. I expect better of a Communist thread.

My 'source', by the way, was not 'some bourgeois press apparatus', but a voluntary organization called "Wikipedia". And I only highlighted the less dubious facts concerning Mr Lukashenko, hero of the Belarus revolution.
 
I don't believe in communism as a realistic or, as for now, moral way to build a society, in a foreseeable future. It probably won't need to be actively fought since it's weak compared to other ideologies. Just look at the revolutions in the Middle East. --- just to come clean.

My questions as a communism ignorant:
1. Where, what and when was the the most successful attempt at communism made?
2. Why does it always fail and what do you regard the largest hurdles for a successful and long lived communist state?
3. How many hours per week will we need to work and when's the pension?
4. How will people end up with the more taxing jobs if there's no incentive to work there?
5. Will there be luxury items? Is there a way to save up for a Porsche if I work hard and only eat oatmeal at lunch?
6. If we had a long lived communist state - would we attempt to spread it to our neighbours in any way?

Thank you!
 
Next question: What is the Communist view on green economy?

I assume you mean one which pollutes very little, and is based upon renewable energy? Wholehearted endorsement. While environmentalism may not have been at the forefront of the old socialist states' concerns, it occupies a central one today. The communist movement today bases its positions primarily upon long-term sustainability: of the economy, of the environment, of everything. This is something which makes me very happy, because I think it reflects a much more holistic and mature view than before.

I don't believe in communism as a realistic or, as for now, moral way to build a society, in a foreseeable future. It probably won't need to be actively fought since it's weak compared to other ideologies. Just look at the revolutions in the Middle East. --- just to come clean.

My questions as a communism ignorant:

Ah, these questions remind me of the good ol' days of Ask a Red! You warm my heart, young Loppan!

1. Where, what and when was the the most successful attempt at communism made?

Difficult question, since communism and socialism are not the same thing. Socialism is the process of turning capitalism into communism. It is when we dismantle capitalism and implement the policies which will take us toward communism. Communism is the stateless society of free equals, without private property or differences of wealth. Socialism, being the road which takes us there, still retains many of these things, although they are on their gradual way out the door.

However, it is almost universally understood that the best attempt at permanently departing from capitalism was the Paris Commune, in 1871. Marx himself wrote about it in The Civil War in France, a book which basically amounts to "see, THAT'S what I'm talking about!" However, their execution was no flawless (especially seeing as it only lasted a month) and numerous lessons were learned from it, which were implemented in 1917. Lenin wrote his own commentary on the Commune, which are today published together with Marx's.

2. Why does it always fail and what do you regard the largest hurdles for a successful and long lived communist state?

First, there is no such thing as a communist state. Communism is a stateless society. States are tools of class dictatorship, used for maintaining order in a society split into groups with irreconcilable interests. Since communism will be a society in which classes have been rendered impossible, the need for a state will wither and die, and there will only be government, which is responsible for everyday functions of administration, distribution, and arbitration.

There are myriad ideas as to why socialist states have "failed" to reach communism. The first is quite simply that they did not have enough time. Remember that socialism/communism are directly antithetical to capitalism, and their very existence is a challenge to the capitalist-structured society. For this reason, capitalist-ruled states have always sought to destroy this new and dangerous force. The same thing happened to Republican France; after removing the King and declaring a republic of all the people, all the monarchies in Europe turned France into a pariah, invading it with the expressed purpose of restoring the King to the throne and destroying this awful new idea which threatened their own power. As we know, they eventually succeeded. So it has been in the Soviet Union as well. But, as we also know, republicanism eventually triumphed across the world. I believe socialism will one day as well.

Other things to remember are also that the socialism which Marx and Engels spoke of, which would arise because of capitalism and inevitably replace it, has never actually happened yet. All the socialist revolutions have happened in infant industrial states, never mature capitalist ones. While I don't think it's necessary to wait until capitalism is "mature" in order for the working class to take charge, I do think it's worth remembering that things didn't exactly proceed as Marx envisioned. "It hasn't happened yet" isn't a fault in Marxism, though, it's a mere statement of fact. It doesn't mean it can't or won't happen in the future. But when asking "why hasn't it succeeded?" I think it's one thing to keep in mind. It was certainly something which the Bolsheviks, for example, kept in mind. They knew they were departing from "the expected norm," but they fully expected the rest of Europe to join them very shortly in overthrowing capitalism, which was what would make their revolution worthwhile. As we know, that didn't happen, and the rest of the Soviet existence can effectively be summarized as "dealing with all the ramifications of that fact."

3. How many hours per week will we need to work and when's the pension?

Not up to us. One of the key aspects of Marxist socialism is that the new society will decide its own shape. We are not the utopians of old, deciding beforehand from on high how the new non-capitalist society will be. Our expectations are derived from theory: we have observed the patterns of human behavior in the past, and the dynamics which have shaped old and new societies, and used that to extrapolate just how this one will end and what the new one might look like. Minute things like "pensions" are not included in that.

4. How will people end up with the more taxing jobs if there's no incentive to work there?

Compulsion is not the only thing which makes people function or do things which are not "pleasant." People do lots of things simply because they need to be done.

5. Will there be luxury items? Is there a way to save up for a Porsche if I work hard and only eat oatmeal at lunch?

If you like. But in communism there would be no such thing as money. Objects would be produced by necessity and for consumption, not for exchange in markets. Until then, however...

6. If we had a long lived communist state - would we attempt to spread it to our neighbours in any way?

I think communism can probably only exist once capitalism ceases to.

Thank you!

:hatsoff: It's what we are here for.
 
I am not going to provide any answers to this thread, for several reason, but I want to clearify one thing.
I expect better of a Communist thread.
So do I. But the thing is, that this is not really a communist thread. It should be sufficient to have a look at the people who are allowed to answer questions.
Cheezy the Wiz: Very nice fellow and member of the US Communist Party. One of this forums foremost experts on history of the USSR (red_elk might be the other). Clearly a communist. Communists 1, Non-communists 0
RedRalph: Very nice fellow who doesn't post here anymore. As far as I remember, he stopped calling himself a communist. Communists 1, Non-communists 1
civver 764: Don't know him too well, but I think he is some sort of libertarian in its original meaning. I don't reckon those people as communists. Communists 1, Non-communists 2
Traitorfish: An inverted Amadeus. Enough said. Communists 1, Non-communists 3
innonimatu: A very pleasant and knowledgeable fellow, but by own admission not a communist. Communists 1, Non-communists 4
Bast. A lovely lass, who doesn't post here anymore. Had her heart in the right place, but ideolgically confused. Communists 1, Non-communists 5
Richard Cribb: A bitter, unpleasant curmudgeon who has lost nearly all interest in politics. Ostalgic with a special soft spot for the GDR under Walter Ulbricht. Also the one who regrettably came up with the idea for this thread. Is given the benefit of doubt, for once. Communists 2, Non-communists 5
FredLC: A real gentleman and scholar. But by own admission not a communist nor a socialist. Communists 2, Non-communists 6
Hygro: A left-liberal and might I assume also an A student. Communists 2, Non-communists 7
ReindeerThistle: A very nice fellow and quite the orthodox Marxist-Leninist. Practices what he preaches; kudos for that. Communists 3, Non-communists 7
Aelf: A very nice fellow who I from what I know will give the benefit of doubt. Communists 4, Non-communists 7
Azale: I simply don't know what this one is doing here. Communists 4, Non-communists 8
The non-communists are in majority.
And if one will question a few of these, for instance if you move over civver 764 and InvertedAmadeus there would still be a panel consisting of 50% non-communists. But all this might be gathered by reading the introductionary post in the thread...
Now I have a question for the learned gentlemen; earlier in the thread one can find this:
Cheezy the Wiz said:
That is why Marxism ejected utopianism in favor of a coherent and systematic theory: a social science. It allows us to understand things on a theoretical level and reapply lessons to understand new circumstances as well as old ones.
So Marxism is a science then. Very well, I have no problem with that. However, do you agree with Lakatos that it can be classified as a degenerative research program? And if so, how should it be made progressive?
 
So do I. But the thing is, that this is not really a communist thread.

Indeed. It is a thread to learn more about communism and socialism from those who are experts on it. The contributors are those who have demonstrated expertise on that subject, who we, the communists, feel accurately enough represent our position on things to be able to voice them on our behalf. Although for all the scoffing you may do that that policy, it was you who introduced it, allowing Fred to post on your behalf once upon a yesteryear.

It should be sufficient to have a look at the people who are allowed to answer questions.

In my defense I have left many of the names standing who no longer contribute: Bast, Ralph, civver, etc. I have only officially removed people who have direct cause to be removed, i.e. people who actively demonstrated they do not contribute to the goal of this thread.

Also, you may have had a bad past with Azale, but I have seem him grow into a bright young democratic socialist. It was he who introduced me to Jacobin, for example, and he is arguably more directly involved in The Fight in America than I am today, and not merely because of my geographic location.

But then the only people who really answer questions these days are RT and myself, with the occasional appearance from Aelf, Azale, and TF, although he seems to be more concerned with his anarchist thread he opened with more questionable characters. So really the ratio, even being unforgiving, is more like 3:2, which puts the communists in the majority.

Now I have a question for the learned gentlemen; earlier in the thread one can find this:

So Marxism is a science then. Very well, I have no problem with that. However, do you agree with Lakatos that it can be classified as a degenerative research program? And if so, how should it be made progressive?

I'm afraid I don't understand the question, and that I have never heard of Lakatos. However, I don't think Marxism is a hard science like biology or physics.

Of course if you were to return, then you would still very much be the learned gentleman...

As always, my old friend,

:hatsoff:
 
Richard Cribb: A bitter, unpleasant curmudgeon who has lost nearly all interest in politics. Ostalgic with a special soft spot for the GDR under Walter Ulbricht. Also the one who regrettably came up with the idea for this thread. Is given the benefit of doubt, for once. Communists 2, Non-communists 5
Bit generous to include yourself as a communist isn't it?
 
More important that the 4:8 communists to non-communists is the 7:5 nice to non-nice folks answering questions :p
 
I'd like to your Smith and Ricardo quotes to support that. (I'm not sure why you are referring to outdated economists by the way.)

I'd be extremely leery when JEELEN claims (explicitly or implicitly) to be an authority on anything. He once claimed to be a philosopher too, but I don't think many people believed his act. His desire to quote non-"outdated economists", for example, seems to leave out the possibility that the economists he relies on would become "outdated" in the future as well. He doesn't seem to realise that it's the content, or what these economists say, that truly matters in an argument about economics (as opposed to economic history, for example). So much for being a philosopher.

Apparently, he also does not understand what Q&A means. So all in all, I don't see much value arising from anyone engaging him anymore.

Simply said, besides the other excellent points that have been raised, rising wages do not mean runaway inflation if the rising wages is a result of or is part of the redistribution of wealth in a society.
 
Azale: I simply don't know what this one is doing here.

Out of respect to Cheezy I won't say anything. Just let the record show that I really want to say something :)
 
...
Now I have a question for the learned gentlemen...

So Marxism is a science then. Very well, I have no problem with that. However, do you agree with Lakatos that it can be classified as a degenerative research program? And if so, how should it be made progressive?

I am not familiar with Lakatos, but as for the science of Marxism I always point to two very famous works:
1. Capital, if course, with its point by point study of the mechanics of the capitalist system and using Smith and Ricardo and turning them on their head.

2. VI Lenin's Materialism and Empirio-Criticism, where Lenin takes the pseudo-science of Mach and Avenarius' "Empirio-Criticism" (aka Subjective idealism and "Nazism" as it later manifested itself) and turns it on its head.

The science of Marxism lies in the rational kernel of Hegel (who placed primacy in the ideal) and dialectics and added to it materialism. That is: the world works in a certain way -- materially and historically -- via three laws od dialectics: unity [and struggle] of opposites; law of transformation of minute quantifiable change to visible qualitative change; and negation of the negation... where one opposite cancels the other.

Boiling water is a great example... some water stays water when heated to 212°F and some turns to steam. If you leave the heat on, in a 68°F room, the water will eventually all evaporate. In colder air, it takes longer. It's forces acting against each other.

Social struggles are no different.

That's it for now... more to come.
 
The science of Marxism lies in the rational kernel of Hegel (who placed primacy in the ideal) and dialectics and added to it materialism. That is: the world works in a certain way -- materially and historically -- via three laws od dialectics: unity [and struggle] of opposites; law of transformation of minute quantifiable change to visible qualitative change; and negation of the negation... where one opposite cancels the other.

Actually, Marx claimed to have replaced Hegel's idealism for materialism, resulting in the primacy of the economy in historic changes. Ofcourse, Communism itself being a clear example of idealism, Marx did not in effect turn Hegel on its head. If the basic forces of historic change are economic, they are indeed difficult to steer - in any direction.

The whole idea of "scientific Socialism" is that it employs (or should employ) scientific methods, as opposed to the previous utopian Socialism. Presently, I would say it is neither here nor there whether Communism (or Socialism at large) presents a scientific view. Most modern ideologies rely in some degree on the results of scientific enterprise. But to deny idealism altogether is tantamount to ignoring at least the last two centuries of world history.

I'd be extremely leery when JEELEN claims (explicitly or implicitly) to be an authority on anything. He once claimed to be a philosopher too, but I don't think many people believed his act.

It seems you are answering a question nobody asked - by stating things without any basis in fact. But don't let me interrupt prematurely:

His desire to quote non-"outdated economists", for example, seems to leave out the possibility that the economists he relies on would become "outdated" in the future as well. He doesn't seem to realise that it's the content, or what these economists say, that truly matters in an argument about economics (as opposed to economic history, for example). So much for being a philosopher.

...which basically doesn't answer anything. Contunuing:

Apparently, he also does not understand what Q&A means. So all in all, I don't see much value arising from anyone engaging him anymore.

Simply said, besides the other excellent points that have been raised, rising wages do not mean runaway inflation if the rising wages is a result of or is part of the redistribution of wealth in a society.

Which of course they rarely are. What was being discussed was an actual situation, not a hypothetical one in some distant future.

But thanks for trying, anyway.

I assume you mean one which pollutes very little, and is based upon renewable energy? Wholehearted endorsement. While environmentalism may not have been at the forefront of the old socialist states' concerns, it occupies a central one today. The communist movement today bases its positions primarily upon long-term sustainability: of the economy, of the environment, of everything. This is something which makes me very happy, because I think it reflects a much more holistic and mature view than before.

Now that is an answer. Thank you.
 
What portion of overall costs do wages constitute in your average "Western" company, anyway?
 
So do reds generally believe that communism is practical now, or that it won't be possible until technology and population changes allow for a post-scarcity society? If you believe it is practical now, can you explain how you would deal with scarcity problems?
 
So do reds generally believe that communism is practical now, or that it won't be possible until technology and population changes allow for a post-scarcity society?

We live in a post-scarcity society now, but it is not necessary for communism.

If you believe it is practical now, can you explain how you would deal with scarcity problems?

Rational distribution of resources. Who needs it most, and who is best for it, gets it.

What do you think of FARC?

Drug-running terrorist thugs.
 
What do you think of FARC?

Not as bad as the AUC, could end up being more successful than more peaceful movements like the EZLN if negotiations with the government come to fruition. Still infested with quite a few drug-running thugs, as Cheezy says it, iirc though they have much less to do with the drug-running than they used to.
 
To say I'm unimpressed with perma-rebellion Maoist style groups is an understatement, especially ones like these who kidnap indiscriminately and use terror on the general populace*. The only thing in Colombia worse than them are the absolutely insane thugs the Colombian government sent after them, who do all the same things but worse and more often.

*this also includes stunts like the IRA killing Lord Mountbatten with a bomb on his boat "to bring attention to our cause and show we're really serious n' stuff"
 
We live in a post-scarcity society now, but it is not necessary for communism.



Rational distribution of resources. Who needs it most, and who is best for it, gets it.



.

But what is the mechanism used to determine who needs it most? Aren't you de facto admitting that we are not in a post scarcity society if you have to compare who needs something most?
 
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