Ask an atheist (the second coming)

[warpus]

About this question. Do you guys belive in some karma law in this lifetime? or some kind of reward for good actions, and a punishment for bad actions?.

A reward for good action is feeling good about doing a good deed. That's all you need

So do we have free will?.

That awfull question doesn't belong to this thread. But if there exists physics laws that can predict how each particle in the universe moves, maybe our fate is already sealed. That to say that karma may not be supernatural .

The universe is not deterministic though, as far as we can tell anyway. The Heisenberg uncertainty principle prevents you from predicting the exact movement & energy of particles.

 

[zjintz]

yeah, as far as we can tell...

 

[Leoreth]

Even if all of our decisions are determined by the biochemical processes in our brains, they're still our decisions, because we ARE the biochemical processes in our brains.

 

[warpus]

Even if all of our decisions are determined by the biochemical processes in our brains, they're still our decisions, because we ARE the biochemical processes in our brains.

The problem is that if the universe is purely deterministic, it would be possible to predict the future, implying a lack of free will (If there was free will, the future would be impossible to predict, etc.)

 

[Leoreth]

Yeah, which is why I avoided the term free will in this context, because I believe it doesn't exist.

 

[erez87]

The problem is that if the universe is purely deterministic, it would be possible to predict the future, implying a lack of free will (If there was free will, the future would be impossible to predict, etc.)

Since when a random universe (where you can't predict the future, since it has not yet been made) means there is free-will?

 

[peter grimes]

Free will is almost certainly a false construct of our brains. But this doesn't mean that our brains can't make choices.

There's a really good summary of the current state of understanding here:
http://blog.case.edu/singham/free_will/index
It's in reverse chronological order, so start reading from the bottom.

 

[warpus]

Since when a random universe (where you can't predict the future, since it has not yet been made) means there is free-will?

It doesn't, I never said it did A deterministic universe makes free will impossible, but a non-deterministic universe does not necessarily imply free will.

 

[timtofly]

Is the universe random?

 

[erez87]

Is the universe random?

At the most basic particles, and even some really big ones, random laws rule the scene.

 

[timtofly]

At the most basic particles, and even some really big ones, random laws rule the scene.

Is there a binding "effect" then?

 

[erez87]

Is there a binding "effect" then?

A what effect?

 

[timtofly]

A what effect?

How can the universe be predictable (for the most part), but yet random at it's "core"?

 

[erez87]

How can the universe be predictable (for the most part), but yet random at it's "core"?

Because the more massive and larger something gets the quicker the quantum randomness looses its importance.

Imagine everything in the universe vibrates to all directions, but the vibration is 10^-31 meters to each direction. You will never be able to grasp such a tiny change, so it's not seen by our eyes (and that's why you can't normally see quantum things in the big world, and that might be why we didn't know about it until we started researching single tiny particles).

 

[warpus]

How can the universe be predictable (for the most part), but yet random at it's "core"?

Order arises from chaos all the time.

Read up on Chaos Theory.

 

[erez87]

Order arises from chaos all the time.

Read up on Chaos Theory.

Chaos isn't random. Chaos is deterministic but very hard to... determine I guess.

 

[warpus]

Chaos isn't random. Chaos is deterministic but very hard to... determine I guess.

Then I'll rephrase what I said to: Order arises from disorder all the time.

 

[erez87]

Then I'll rephrase what I said to: Order arises from disorder all the time.

That it does. The laws of nature makes disorder become order all the time.

 

[warpus]

That it does. The laws of nature makes disorder become order all the time.

That's one part of it. It also seems to be an inherent property of chaos in general.. or whatever you want to call it.

 

[erez87]

That's one part of it. It also seems to be an inherent property of chaos in general.. or whatever you want to call it.

A major thought here is what is order to say nature brings it?

How do we define Order?