1. We have added a Gift Upgrades feature that allows you to gift an account upgrade to another member, just in time for the holiday season. You can see the gift option when going to the Account Upgrades screen, or on any user profile screen.
    Dismiss Notice

Ask an atheist (the second coming)

Discussion in 'Off-Topic' started by Ziggy Stardust, Nov 1, 2011.

  1. timtofly

    timtofly One Day

    Joined:
    Sep 28, 2009
    Messages:
    9,430
    It is predictable?
     
  2. warpus

    warpus In pork I trust

    Joined:
    Aug 28, 2005
    Messages:
    49,689
    Location:
    Stamford Bridge
    Mathematically. I think Chaos Theory deals with all these issues, but I'm not too familiar with the details.
     
  3. erez87

    erez87 Lord of Random

    Joined:
    May 16, 2002
    Messages:
    13,450
    Location:
    Lod, Israel
    So something disorderly is unpredictable and anything with order can be predicted?
    Snow flakes are orderly - yet we can't predict their shape.
    Quantum particles are random - yet to a certain level (statistic) we can predict things about it.


    Mathematics? I don't think Chaos theory deals with order and disorder, but with chaotic systems (System that heavily depend on their exact starting conditions).


    You got any popular reading material about scientific definitions for Order?
    The only one I know of comes from Entropy - disorder is defined as Entropy. And as entropy grows disorder grows -> and of course entropy growing is the basic thing behind nature. So technically we get less and less order.
     
  4. Ai Shizuka

    Ai Shizuka King

    Joined:
    Oct 30, 2008
    Messages:
    856
    Question from an apatheist.
    Why bother?

    It's not necessarily directed to the OP or the people answering in this thread, but some "active" atheists really leave me baffled.
    I find apatheism a much more rational stance about the gods or religion in general. I mean, why go out of one's way to prove something completely irrational is... irrational.

    No one feels the need to prove the sea isn't pink or tomorrow isn't going to rain faeces from the sky. It's simply not going to happen.


    A "real" atheist, in my opinion, shouldn't even have an opinion about the topic.
    If someone comes claiming his pen is going to fall upward when he drops it, I don't start a debate. I simply dismiss him as drunk, on drugs, mentally challenged or very ignorant.
     
  5. erez87

    erez87 Lord of Random

    Joined:
    May 16, 2002
    Messages:
    13,450
    Location:
    Lod, Israel
    Because religion and religious people constantly attempt to control my life and put religious laws in them. Oh and attempt to stop Scientific advancement in health and technology etc... They also want me in jail for being gay.

    Why would a "real" atheist not have an opinion? He can, it just have nothing to do with Atheism...
     
  6. zjintz

    zjintz Chieftain

    Joined:
    Oct 24, 2011
    Messages:
    70
    What a nice reading!. thanks.

    sadly I can't see the clips right now. .
     
  7. warpus

    warpus In pork I trust

    Joined:
    Aug 28, 2005
    Messages:
    49,689
    Location:
    Stamford Bridge
    They're all interlinked topics and ideas, imo.

    It's hard not to have an opinion. I have an opinion on everything ;)

    I'm an atheist who doesn't really care much, though. I just don't believe that gods exist, and that's it.
     
  8. erez87

    erez87 Lord of Random

    Joined:
    May 16, 2002
    Messages:
    13,450
    Location:
    Lod, Israel
    I don't think so. I have never heard of any connection between Entropy and Chaos theory. One is a mathematical subject for systems that depend greatly on starting conditions, and the other is a statistic way of managing the direction to which chemical and some physical system will move to.

    BTW claiming we have more order now than when the universe begin would not be correct according to entropy laws. But that's mostly because there is no actually simple definition of order, only a mathematical one.
     
  9. warpus

    warpus In pork I trust

    Joined:
    Aug 28, 2005
    Messages:
    49,689
    Location:
    Stamford Bridge
    Both deal with order/disorder and the complexity of systems.

    We have localised pockets of order, such as the cities we build on this planet, etc. As a whole, entropy is increasing throughout the Universe though.
     
  10. erez87

    erez87 Lord of Random

    Joined:
    May 16, 2002
    Messages:
    13,450
    Location:
    Lod, Israel
    I really doubt chaos theory deals with order and complexity. I have found nothing to indicate it does.

    That's not exactly true. Entropy is a closed system trait. Cities aren't a closed system and so we cannot consider cities as pockets of order. And a city, as complex as it might get, is still far less orderly (in entropy measures) than the universe at the age of say, 5 million.
     
  11. warpus

    warpus In pork I trust

    Joined:
    Aug 28, 2005
    Messages:
    49,689
    Location:
    Stamford Bridge
    Chaos Theory in some cases deals with the emergency of complexity.

    Nothing (except for the entire Universe) is a fully closed system though. If you want to talk about the entropy of systems that aren't the universe (or multiverse or whatever), then you've got to consider non-closed systems.
     
  12. erez87

    erez87 Lord of Random

    Joined:
    May 16, 2002
    Messages:
    13,450
    Location:
    Lod, Israel
    Do you have a source for that?

    True. I was going too far. But at least try something somewhat closed. A city is far far from a closed system. A factory is closer to it. But in both we only see an apparent rise in order because somewhere else there are huge drops in order...
     
  13. warpus

    warpus In pork I trust

    Joined:
    Aug 28, 2005
    Messages:
    49,689
    Location:
    Stamford Bridge
    sure

    That's what my example meant to illustrate - while entropy increases as a whole, small pockets in the universe increase in order, the example being a city, or a factory, or whatever.
     
  14. erez87

    erez87 Lord of Random

    Joined:
    May 16, 2002
    Messages:
    13,450
    Location:
    Lod, Israel
    Thanks! But now while reading I noticed we kind of mixed something.

    Order and Complexity are not the same thing. A complex system can be disorderly and a very orderly system can be totally simple (and many times is).
     
  15. timtofly

    timtofly One Day

    Joined:
    Sep 28, 2009
    Messages:
    9,430
    Is it not the fact that predictions happen that shows us "Order"?

    I did not mean the diferrence between predictable and unpredictable.

    Order is only in things that have the ability to be predictable and when a prediction results in a fact. This fact is law until it is no longer predictable, but a fact comes up to prove it otherwise.


    Chaos is at the lowest level, but the more complex something is the less predictable it becomes. Order is the balance between the two, or the equalibrium of chaos.

    A city has too many variables and more complex than a factory.

    The universe is predictable until a comet is found on course to hit the earth in 5 months?
     
  16. cardgame

    cardgame Obsessively Opposed to the Typical

    Joined:
    Apr 1, 2009
    Messages:
    13,485
    Location:
    Misery
    That doesn't mean it's not predictable, merely that we missed a spot or variable...
     
  17. El_Machinae

    El_Machinae Colour vision since 2018 Retired Moderator

    Joined:
    Nov 24, 2005
    Messages:
    43,523
    Location:
    Pale Blue Dot youtube=wupToqz1e2g
    Actually, the way people mean that the universe is 'unpredictable' is that some fundamental laws of reality are determined by probability functions and not by set figures. In aggregate, or macro terms, the net effect of all the probability functions are going to be predictable. But each individual component is not predictable
     
  18. Ziggy Stardust

    Ziggy Stardust New Englander

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2005
    Messages:
    24,103
    Location:
    High above the ice
    I heard you like analogies :)

    A river is predictable. We can say it'll flow to lower areas, we can predict were erosions will take place prominently, like in bends. But the motion of each atom vibrating in a single molecule which is tossed around amongst other molecules is chaotic.

    Now if you really want to go into mental physics you could imagine an electron 'circling' an atom. Not really circling since such an atom zips in and out of existence. Then it gets really unpredictable.

    But unpredictable in this case simply could mean: according to rules we have yet to discover.
     
  19. ParadigmShifter

    ParadigmShifter Random Nonsense Generator

    Joined:
    Apr 4, 2007
    Messages:
    21,810
    Location:
    Liverpool, home of Everton FC
    Nope. It means we cannot measure the initial conditions to an arbitrary precision. Chaos Theory shows us that certain dynamical systems diverge wildly away from each other even when the starting condition differences are too small to be measured, and the underlying algorithm is the same, just applied to slightly different initial conditions.

    Here's an image of a simulation of a pendulum being attracted to two magnets depending on where the magnet pendulum starts.



    In the chaotic regions the more you zoom in the more unpredictability arises, it's very difficult to tell whether a pixel is red or blue. All measurements are necessarily inaccurate, and this means in a chaotic region you cannot tell with any certainty where the pendulum will come to rest.
     
  20. cardgame

    cardgame Obsessively Opposed to the Typical

    Joined:
    Apr 1, 2009
    Messages:
    13,485
    Location:
    Misery
    Yeah, I should have amended my post with a 'necessarily'.
     

Share This Page