Ask an Israel-American

[momo1000]

Do you hold the same sympathies for the Palestinians who had to flee their part of the Mandate in '48 due to actions by paramilitary gangs and, at times, the official Israeli government?

Yes I do. I do not approve of all the actions of my ancestors. I don't think anyone does.

 

[Rulle_Kebab]

Ahh but I meant how are the Arab-Israeli-Jews, I mean arabs who are Jews who like you said fled into Israel.
What I've been told is that they have much harder attaining decent positions, both army and public and that they are regarded more as Arabs and not Israelis on the same level as you or the European Jews that lives there.

Regarding Egypt, I know that most bedouin people dont have much against jews or Israel. Many I know of the older ones(I've spend a lot of time in Sinai) reminisce about the time Israel controlled Sinai.
The resentment is more from the egyptians themselves, they even consider some of the bedouins more israeli then egyptians.

 

[momo1000]

Ahh but I meant how are the Arab-Israeli-Jews, I mean arabs who are Jews who like you said fled into Israel.
What I've been told is that they have much harder attaining decent positions, both army and public and that they are regarded more as Arabs and not Israelis on the same level as you or the European Jews that lives there.

Regarding Egypt, I know that most bedouin people dont have much against jews or Israel. Many I know of the older ones(I've spend a lot of time in Sinai) reminisce about the time Israel controlled Sinai.
The resentment is more from the egyptians themselves, they even consider some of the bedouins more israeli then egyptians.

After the Soviet Union collapsed and a huge number (something like 600,000) of Russian Jews immigrated to Israel. At the same time, many Arab-Jews and Ethiopians migrated to Israel. Because the Russians were a. better educated and b. pushier they managed to take most of the attention of the government towards immigrants so the Arab Jews did not receive as much support as the Russians and this sort of created a lower class, where the Ashkenazi Jews (E. European and Russian) dominated Israeli economy/politics and the Sephardi Jews (Spain and the Mid. East) became less influential.

 

[kochman]

After the Soviet Union collapsed and a huge number (something like 600,000) of Russian Jews immigrated to Israel. At the same time, many Arab-Jews and Ethiopians migrated to Israel. Because the Russians were a. better educated and b. pushier they managed to take most of the attention of the government towards immigrants so the Arab Jews did not receive as much support as the Russians and this sort of created a lower class, where the Ashkenazi Jews (E. European and Russian) dominated Israeli economy/politics and the Sephardi Jews (Spain and the Mid. East) became less influential.

When I was there, I remember the Sephardics not liking the Ashkenazi very much...

Don't the arabic jews seem to be a gold mine as far as Mossad et al are concerned?

 

[momo1000]

When I was there, I remember the Sephardics not liking the Ashkenazi very much...

Don't the arabic jews seem to be a gold mine as far as Mossad et al are concerned?

I personally don't know much about the Mossad's MO but I think that the Jews in Arabic countries were NEVER trusted, but then again, I'm no expert in Arab-Jews.

 

[kochman]

I personally don't know much about the Mossad's MO but I think that the Jews in Arabic countries were NEVER trusted, but then again, I'm no expert in Arab-Jews.

My ideas was that they can fit in, look similar, know the culture, speak the language without accent, etc...

It's a lot easier to be a spy if you don't stand out!

 

[The Turk]

I don't know if this has already been asked, but what is your opinion on the current Arab Spring, especially concerning countries such as Egypt and Syria. Will this be a good thing or a bad thing for Israel?

Also and sorry again if this has already been asked, but what was your reaction to Abbas' declaration of statehood of Palestine in the West Bank. You stated you were for the two-state solution, so why are so many other Israeli's who also are in favor of the two state solution, against Abbas' declaration.

I personally don't know much about the Mossad's MO but I think that the Jews in Arabic countries were NEVER trusted, but then again, I'm no expert in Arab-Jews.

I can claim to have some knowledge in this topic. First off, right at the inception of Israel (in the late 40's and 50's), many Jews escaped rising tensions in newly minted Arab states, and went to Israel. Communities which had historically for hundreds of years, lived side by side, became polarized as many Arabs, felt the plight of the Palestinian people, and turned their anger towards the Jews, thus making many flee, or in the case of Ethiopia and Yemen, having Israel airlift many Arab/Ethiopian Jews to Israel itself.

Today, there are scant few Jews living in Arab countries. Two notable cases are in the Maghreb (Tunisia-Morocco), where there remain some. The Jewish communities in Morocco for example, have always lived peacefully with their Muslim counterparts, sharing a common lineage that dates back to 1492, when Jews and Muslims were expelled from Spain, and many Jews took refuge in Morocco (such as my Aunt and her family).

Another more modern case would be in Lebanon, where last year, the final touches of the Jewish Synagogue was rebuilt, with the return of several Jewish families to Beirut. The synagogue was rebuilt with quasi-government money (Solidere), and was praised by all sectors of society, even Hasan Nasrallah (leader of Hezbollah), who boldly proclaimed that the Jewish faith was not the enemy, but rather the Zionist-Israeli government, and even offered some sort of assistance in the reconstruction of the synagogue (not sure if monetary, or by other means...).

And then you have the case in Turkey where Jewish families, many who have been living their since Byzantine times, and then even many more so from 1492 (when the Ottoman Sultan sent ships to evacuate Jewish families in Spain from persecution, and resettle them in Istanbul and along Western Anatolia), where they are, in modern Turkey, represented by the "Hakham Bashi", or Chief Rabbi and in 2001 a museum was opened up in Istanbul, commemorating the Jews of Turkey, which is quite an interesting museum, if you ever get the chance to visit it.

But of course, in Turkey at least there has been a rise of anti-semitism/anti-zionism in recent years, especially with escalating diplomatic heat between Turkey and Israel, but so far, in Turkey there has not been any attacks against Jews in quite some time, from what I can recall.

DISCLAIMER: Just realized you ONLY meant Jews in Arab countries, but at least now you know something about Jews in Turkey as well

 

[kochman]

I can claim to have some knowledge in this topic. First off, right at the inception of Israel (in the late 40's and 50's), many Jews escaped rising tensions in newly minted Arab states, and went to Israel. Communities which had historically for hundreds of years, lived side by side, became polarized as many Arabs, felt the plight of the Palestinian people, and turned their anger towards the Jews, thus making many flee, or in the case of Ethiopia and Yemen, having Israel airlift many Arab/Ethiopian Jews to Israel itself.

"Side by side" = Jews were a legally/religiously discriminated against minority (that often feared for their safety), per Sharia/Koran status of any non-Muslim.

 

[Ajidica]

Side by side" = Jews were a legally/religiously discriminated against minority (that often feared for their safety), per Sharia/Koran status of any non-Muslim.

Being a second-class minority with protected rights in an age without Liberal ideology is a good achievment, and it is all the better compared to the treatment in Europe at the time which varied from second-class minority to no protections to flat-out persecution.

Is the second-class with protected rights a desirable status now? No, but at the time when the majority of those laws were being enforced, it was one of the closest things to religious freedom out there.

 

[kochman]

Being a second-class minority with protected rights in an age without Liberal ideology is a good achievment, and it is all the better compared to the treatment in Europe at the time which varied from second-class minority to no protections to flat-out persecution.

Is the second-class with protected rights a desirable status now? No, but at the time when the majority of those laws were being enforced, it was one of the closest things to religious freedom out there.

True... but using terms that are blatantly not true (side by side, inferring equals) to describe 2nd class citizenship, based on the idea that it was better off in the Ottoman Empire (in some areas anyhow) than anywhere in Christianity (which is not true, but it is true in certain areas of Christianity), is disengenous.

Just making sure people weren't taking the false statement for the truth.

 

[The Turk]

Don't believe me? Here you go:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Jews_in_Turkey

Of course there was discrimination, heck there is discrimination everywhere, but to say things like the Jews in the Ottoman Empire and later Turkey were treated badly is a very stupid statement. The Armenians were treated badly, but not the Jews, you should read up on the millet system, something that derived from Classical era of Arab civilization, and was unique compared to anywhere else in the world.

PS. When I said side-by-side I was referring to the fact that many Jewish quarters of cities all over the Ottoman Empire were extremely important centers for commerce and trade among Muslims and Christians. In fact, I can give the example of Jerusalem where many Jewish and Muslim families grew up together, and shared everything with each other, went to each others weddings, festivals etc. Much like the Muslims and Hindu's in South Asia, before the British arrived.

 

[Ajidica]

but to say things like the Jews in the Ottoman Empire and later Turkey were treated badly is a very stupid statement

Clarification: the treatment varied from good to terrible during the Ottoman Sultanate in different areas. Some places it was good, some places it was bad. Attempting to portray treatment as good universally is as intellectualy dishonest as attempting to portray treatment as a constant stream of oppression.

 

[kochman]

Clarification: the treatment varied from good to terrible during the Ottoman Sultanate in different areas. Some places it was good, some places it was bad. Attempting to portray treatment as good universally is as intellectualy dishonest as attempting to portray treatment as a constant stream of oppression.

Exactly. Thank you Ajy...
Were I a jew in those ages, nowhere would have been a bed of roses... but yes, parts of the Ottoman empire, and parts of Europe (Poland, for example), were better than other parts of both.

 

[HannibalBarka]

Exactly. Thank you Ajy...
Were I a jew in those ages, nowhere would have been a bed of roses... but yes, parts of the Ottoman empire, and parts of Europe (Poland, for example), were better than other parts of both.

Humm, to be even more honest, the good parts in the Ottoman Empire were more frequent than those in Europe. Were I a jew in those ages, if I were asked to be dropped ramdomly somewhere in Euorpe or in the Ottoman Empire, a smart answer from me would be to pick the Ottoman Empire over Europe

 

[Ajidica]

and parts of Europe (Poland, for example), were better than other parts of both.

Odd. I've heard that Poland was a relatively bad place for the Jews. In one discussion I heard that "Jew baiting became the traditional, if not proud, national sport of Poland".

It is perfectly possible that this speaker was speaking from a misinformed position, but I have read other articles which seem to indicate that treatment of Jews was rather poor in Poland. (It certiantly was terrible in The Pale.)

 

[kochman]

Odd. I've heard that Poland was a relatively bad place for the Jews. In one discussion I heard that "Jew baiting became the traditional, if not proud, national sport of Poland".

It is perfectly possible that this speaker was speaking from a misinformed position, but I have read other articles which seem to indicate that treatment of Jews was rather poor in Poland. (It certiantly was terrible in The Pale.)

Surely there were parts there too, where the Jews faced harder times... but overall, there is a reason that Poland had so many Jews, and it wasn't the weather!

King Stanislaw (the 2nd?) invited the Jews in, and they thrived there, etc.

That certainly changed though, for example, post WW2, there were pogroms against the few Jews that did remain in Poland...

The plight of the Jew is one I very sympathetic with.

 

[AltSteve1990]

Hey.

1.)Do you have any Palestinian friends?

2.)Have you ever been to the West Bank?

3.)Which party do you support: Likud or Kadima?

4.)What's your opinion on the settlers?

5.)Are you critical of your government's policies both foreign and domestic?

 

[Lone Wolf]

Well, quite a lot of Jews in Poland-Lithuania were middlemen between the landlords and the peasants - a position that didn't earn them any favours with the peasants. That's one of the reasons why the Cossack rebellion of Bogdan Khmelnitsky was so anti-Jewish (of course, they were also perfectly willing to terrorize Jews who were not middlemen).

And of course, Polish Catholicism hardened with age, what's with the Church becoming a quasi-national symbol in partitioned Poland.