Discussion in 'Off-Topic' started by momo1000, Nov 5, 2011.
What's going to happen when he gets here? How will you know it's him when he arrives? Could it be a woman? What is his/her purpose? Aside from Jesus, have any other "false" Messiahs come and gone? Have any Jewish sects claimed that he's already come?
That's right. Most foreign impositions require violence.
No, you shouldn't blame the victim or the other aggressors. In fact, Israel was created by Europeans to rid Europe of Jews. It's based on race war, pure and simple, and that's what makes it wrong and unsustainable.
What's more disturbing about this is that the Nazis used the same identity politics that Israel uses to defend its racist policies.
Something being a regime has nothing to with the presence or lack of democracy. What a great example of your boxed-in mentality. Here you debate with some fool about what determines "Jewishness" (you're right in that debate, by the way, Judaism is simply whatever the self-proclaimed want it to be) but you fail to see the larger picture.
Israel indiscriminately targets civilians in their bombing raids. This is illustrated in the casualties in the war on Gaza. The fact that the "other side" commits the same makes absolutely no difference. What does matter is the generation of the conflict: it didn't start in the hazy days of King David, but in the 1800s with a Jewish-Nationalist movement. It's anti-pluralist and so any "democracy" it possesses is explicitly fascist.
I don't think you're a bad person, and I don't mean to attack you. The fact that you try to draw the line at attacks on civilians says as much. But your unwavering support for a nation state which has no interest in protecting the lives of civilians subject to its rule, occupation or attacks is a fatal flaw which will make you ultimately defend policies and conflicts which are diametrically opposed to your moral compass.
If you look at the history of Israel and its relations to its neighbors, its disturbing. The statistics can only tell so much; simply watching events as they unfold tell the story succinctly. Whenever talks are in progress to swap land or halt settlement expansion (that is the annexation of more Palestinian land by "facts on the ground") forces within Israeli politics (settler movement, probably) force through more expansionism and more incursions. The military steps up its attacks on Palestinian territories when the latter agree to ceasefires or unilaterally halt aggressions. This is because the conflict is desperately needed by the Israeli regime. It serves as a cover for more expansionism, and more attacks, and ultimately more Palestinian retaliation which does wonders to feed into the same.
Defenders of the Israeli regime (particularly likudniks) consistently use the "right for Israel to exist" and to exist as a "Jewish state" to argue for more military aid, and as a demand for peace. It's not enough that Palestinians have to agree not to fight the nation strangling their economy - they have to act like that nation should exist, on land the former had lived on for centuries, as "Jewish." It's race baiting, and that is what Israel has always been about. If you are of strong moral fiber, you should oppose it.
Sorry. Where, exactly, are debates allowed, then?
Everywhere. But this thread is to ask someone who is from Israel questions and not for someone who is Jewish to call the Israeli a fake Jew because the Israeli's mother was not born Jewish. It was consuming the thread and the mods needed him to shut up and move on. You can argue with the people if you'd like, just not in that fashion.
Disagree with that specific part. Antisemitic philozionism is too exotic a phenomena on any level besides simplistic "go back to Israel" chants. The superpowers of the day simply saw in Israel an asset to project their interests in the area (including, for a brief time, the Soviet Union). The USA doesn't support Israel because it hopes that the American Jews will move there.
But you forget that the Hamas terrorists often hide in civilian buildings so that Israel is forced to make a choice: kill the civilians or allow the terrorist to keep shooting rockets into Israel. I disagree with the first choice completely, 100%. But at the same time, it pains me to allow the terrorists to keep doing what they do.
I don't believe in the Messiah sorry. I only know what I've learned from school or picked up from my Orthodox friends.
Moderator Action: . jtb1127 effectively answered this already. The "ask a..."-threads are primarly there for people to find out things. You're allowedd to open new threads to discuss this kinds of things, like "Can a person be called a Jew if he identifies to his nationality primarily".
We also have very strict rules about public discussion of moderator actions (PDMA), since we don't want threads to derail for that either. Since you're new, and didn't really discuss, but asked for clarification, this won't earn you infraction, but you should know it in the future.
Israel uses human shields - both macro (by utilizing policies that place civilian settlements at the front lines of the conflict - and at that, on land that has just been seized from the Palestinians who no live next door, usually down hill in the nearest valley) and micro (there are many cases of Israeli military personnel systematically seizing Palestinian locals and "parading" them around in order to protect themselves from Palestinian attacks while they are invading - most recent case I heard of was in Jenin).
The fact that there is a conflict that necessarily involves civilians reveals the conflict for what it is: a racist war of expropriation. While Israelis complain about "being driven into the sea" this is exactly what was done to Palestinians (who couldn't be efficiently driven inland):
Palestinians driven into the sea from Jaffa, an ancient port city in the so-called "land without a people," razed to make way for Tel Aviv
The fact is that evil propaganda and attacks on civilians are done on both sides. That's not the main issue - what is the issue is the systematic theft of land, expropriation, and economic subjugation that the Palestinians live with in their daily lives - all as a consequence of a foreign occupying force. The Native Americans scalped the Europeans and anyone with sense can see that it was the Europeans fault, regardless. Why is it so hard with Israel to appreciate that the generative and perpetuating cause of the conflict is a foreign occupying force whose national-identity relies upon the ethnic cleansing of its proper state, and the systematic destruction of civilian infrastructure in its outlying territories?
How common are marriages between Jewish and Arab-Israelis? Jewish Israelis and Palestinians? Would you be comfortable living in a state which was officially Jewish, but the majority of whose population was not Jewish? Would the average Israeli? How much do Israeli's hold on to earlier nationalities/roots? For example, you've mentioned how you consider yourself American and Swiss, so do other Israelis tend to hold on to earlier identities, or do they emphasize Jewish-Israeliness more?
Clarification: The USA embargoes Cuba, not blockade them. USA blockaded Cuba only at the height of Cuban Missile Crisis.
Is that going to happen anytime soon?
Since you are a citizen of both Israel and the United States, I will ask you a difficult question. Is Jonathon Pollard an American traitor or an Israeli patriot?
These are mutually incompatible?
No, certainly not tomorrow, but the question is hypothetical. It may happen.
Unless the Arabas are exterminated, something of the sort will eventually happen.
How do you feel about the arab jews?
I ask cause I know some, and in general they have a pretty hard life and say they are being oppressed by the US and European Israelis?
They say... I don't know for sure ofcourse.
The two times I went to Israel I didn't see anything tho but my overall impression was of a country where control and fear was the dominant.
Everyone was a bit more uneasy then across the border in Egypt...
No clue on marriages, sorry. Um, I don't live in Israel at all. Next question. Israelis tend not to hold on to past nationalities so much. I do because I am a Swiss citizen which in my opinion is pretty sicknastybrah.
From what I've read on Jonathan, I think he held no allegiance to the US, and therefore is an Israeli patriot.
Yeah, whenever I pass the Egyptian border in the Sinai the guards always wave at me . They're pretty chill. About the Arab Jews. There are barely any anymore in Arab countries. After 48, they were persecuted and attacked so much the majority fled to Israel, even some who didn't want to. I once read a book (true story) about a Jewish Syrian family in the 60s who are forced to cross the border after anti-Semitism gets so bad after Eli Cohen was hanged. They did not want to move, but they were forced.
About the attitude, you would also be pretty worried if every country around you has a history of war with you and wishes you were dead.
Do you hold the same sympathies for the Palestinians who had to flee their part of the Mandate in '48 due to actions by paramilitary gangs and, at times, the official Israeli government?
Separate names with a comma.