Atheists: Apostate vs Non-Apostate

[strijder20]

If God is real then he invented atheism. That's an amusing thought, at least for me.

He also invented sexual abuse of children, My Little Pony: Friendship is Magic, North Korea, the little canal right under our noses, cockroaches, the 'canals' on the moon, pandas, lollypops and polytheism. If I were religious, I'd already be looking forward to meet him

 

[Mechanicalsalvation]

No I don't, but that seems to be the consensus for many evangelicals and other very conservative Christians.

I will give credit to Bible that if one is inspired by it and sincerely accepts discipleship to Jesus one can make solid progress on that path. So in way it may be (bookwise) all one needs.

 

[hobbsyoyo]

this of course extremely though to understand- such unthinkable violance. but our problem is that we think all from human point of view which is bound to be inaccurate or false. look what humans do to animals. yet we call ourselves evolved and pride ourselfs in humanism. slaughtering children or chicken. give the hen our level thinking and emphaty and see what it will have to say about humans. the issue is more complex and in my wiev it points to something which far transceds suffering or death.

Animals kill each other for food and fun all the time. Take orcas playing football with seals and other porpoises as just one example. We aren't better or worse than all animals in this regard.

From wikipedia:

Although resident killer whales have never been observed to eat other marine mammals, they occasionally harass and kill porpoises and seals for no apparent reason

Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Killer_whale#Mammal_prey
Sorry the original pic changed itself after a few seconds.

 

[Mechanicalsalvation]

Animals kill each other for food and fun all the time. Take orcas playing football with seals and other porpoises as just one example. We aren't better or worse than all animals in this regard.

Yet we strongly feel an urge to move from animality. Most animal-like behavior is unaccaptable for humans.

 

[Mechanicalsalvation]

He also invented sexual abuse of children, My Little Pony: Friendship is Magic, North Korea, the little canal right under our noses, cockroaches, the 'canals' on the moon, pandas, lollypops and polytheism. If I were religious, I'd already be looking forward to meet him

well once you get to the point that you realise that you are non other then another God you will surely be pleased as hell to see your best buddy but thats long time away perhaps...

Edit: when it comes to the case of sexual abuse, there is one thing you have to see that Gods plan my not be like some technical drawing - there is a summ of infinite possibilities and separative truth-forces who colide together and where existence of ignorance and suffering are possible (not inevitable) and with further possibility of limited free will you get sometimes pretty crazy and humanly unthinkable results. but if that wasnt the case then God will turn out to be mere dictator. In any case you can certainly hold God responsible for anything.

 

[hobbsyoyo]

Yet we strongly feel an urge to move from animality. Most animal-like behavior is unaccaptable for humans.

With the big important exception of killing and eating animals, of course.

 

[galdre]

Yet we strongly feel an urge to move from animality. Most animal-like behavior is unaccaptable for humans.

I'd rather be at the mercy of most animals than most humans - the animal is less likely to torment me before it kills me

 

[hobbsyoyo]

I'd rather be at the mercy of most animals than most humans - the animal is less likely to torment me before it kills me

Really? How often do people start eating animals alive before they are dead? How often do people torture and dismember an animal before they've killed it? For humans, the flesh-farming end process usually begins with slaughter, then ends with consumption. For animals, dead or alive they'll eat one another.

Sicko's (who are breaking laws) aside, of course.

 

[galdre]

Really? How often do people start eating animals alive before they are dead? How often do people torture and dismember an animal before they've killed it? For humans, the flesh-farming end process usually begins with slaughter, then ends with consumption. For animals, dead or alive they'll eat one another.

Sicko's (who are breaking laws) aside, of course.

How many animals commit genocide against other groups of their own species? How many animals torture each other?

The fact is when I go out into the middle of nowhere it's not the animals I'm worried about (although their are grizzlies and mountain lions around here that would make short work of me) it is the people who might be out there.

 

[Mechanicalsalvation]

I'd rather be at the mercy of most animals than most humans - the animal is less likely to torment me before it kills me

Sorry to hear that. I wonder what pople you hang up with...
I mean I am quite confident my pals will kill me nice and quick if they decide so

 

[hobbsyoyo]

How many animals commit genocide against other groups of their own species? How many animals torture each other?

The fact is when I go out into the middle of nowhere it's not the animals I'm worried about (although their are grizzlies and mountain lions around here that would make short work of me) it is the people who might be out there.

Yeah I laser-focused in on the carnivore aspect I totally skipped over the really obvious stuff in doing so.

I'm definitely off my game today.

In my defense however, I think being eaten alive counts as torture. And I'm not convinced that animals would not commit genocide if given our intelligence. Look at how chimpanzee clans go after one another. Or rival wolf packs, rival lion prides, or lion prides versus hyena's. They are all absolutely vicious to one another. They go beyond what's necessary routinely and I wouldn't call them saints or even say that our behavior is necessarily different to theirs in this aspect. We just pack more heat.

 

[galdre]

Yeah I laser-focused in on the carnivore aspect I totally skipped over the really obvious stuff in doing so.

I'm definitely off my game today.

In my defense however, I think being eaten alive counts as torture. And I'm not convinced that animals would not commit genocide if given our intelligence. Look at how chimpanzee clans go after one another. Or rival wolf packs, rival lion prides, or lion prides versus hyena's. They are all absolutely vicious to one another. They go beyond what's necessary routinely and I wouldn't call them saints or even say that our behavior is necessarily different to theirs in this aspect. We just pack more heat.

is intelligence and brutality linked? Interesting question.

 

[hobbsyoyo]

it's intelligence and brutality linked? Interesting question.

I don't know. I've seen the sick things ants to do every living invertebrate and small animals around them.

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

But does the ant know it's doing a sick thing? The ant is just reacting to impulses without any means to reflect on them.

We do have those means. But I can see the obvious snag there as well.

 

[hobbsyoyo]

But does the ant know it's doing a sick thing? The ant is just reacting to impulses without any means to reflect on them.

We do have those means. But I can see the obvious snag there as well.

The whole thing about something being sick is that it is really only something humans (as far as we know) percieve as 'sick' so I can only take the argument so far as you pointed out. But all of the other terrible actions mentioned above are impulse driven, as are the terrible things humans do.

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

I'm not arguing against that. And I'm not sure intelligence is the right word for it. But I do feel that the ability to reflect on the consequences of your actions are needed if you want to label those actions as brutality.

 

[Borachio]

<snip>

 

[hobbsyoyo]

I'm not arguing against that. And I'm not sure intelligence is the right word for it. But I do feel that the ability to reflect on the consequences of your actions are needed if you want to label those actions as brutality.

You are absolutely right, but from someone who can reflect on it, those actions are brutal. The only reason why I don't fully agree with what you just said is that I do feel some of those animals are intelligent/self-aware (whatever term we agree on) to know the pain they are inflicting or have some empathic feelings. But they do it anyway, and even if they lack the capacity for empathy, such brutality is not always necessary or even entirely conducive for survival (Orca playing lethally with animals it isn't going to eat - they could easily hurt themselves while doing so).

Edit: What was the obvious snag you mentioned? As illustrated above, I often miss the obvious.

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

Could be true. I know close to nothing about animal psychology.

Except when it relates to our cats.

 

[hobbsyoyo]

Could be true. I know close to nothing about animal psychology.

Except when it relates to our cats.

I like to think I know what my dog is thinking as well.