warpus
In pork I trust
This is slightly unrelated, but Norm MacDonald once referred to his wife as an battle axe
Axemen or Masemen in real world: where they are used FOR REAL?
- Thread starter Oleksandr Sereda
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- real wars
H4run
Deity
She must be awesome.
Boris Gudenuf
Deity
No big deal. My first wife had a tongue sharp enough to cut through armor and blunt enough to cave in your ego. . .
Sofista
Deity
I suspect that the warfare potential of kitchenware has sadly always been overlooked.
H4run
Deity
This is a clear discrimination, they all talk about peasantry weapon, while never once, ONCE, talking about kitchenary weapon. We all know that fork, spoon, wok, pan are lethal when it use in the right way and intention!
Grrraaaaaaghhhh!
![[pissed]](/images/smilies/pissed.gif "Pissed [pissed]")
GinandTonic
Saphire w/ Schweps + Lime
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There was a badass if the week about a Russian or possibly Polish cook who captured a tank with, IIRC, a knife and a dishcloth. I cant find it now.
Googling gives me this lol: https://www.warhistoryonline.com/world-war-ii/ivan-pavlovich-soviet-soldier.html
Farm Boy
run boy run
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I was thinking about peasant weapons and how cruddy it is to have to use tools that aren't easy to replace in the wrong way. Then realized it probably doesn't matter, because you aren't going to need the tools anymore after the violent hicks that practiced with pointy sticks got through with you.
Angst
Rambling and inconsistent
I could use a bedtime story. Can someone tell me the story of the billhook?
Boris Gudenuf
Deity
I served in the US Army back in the mid-1960s with a ex-Hungarian antitank gunner who fought in the 1956 Rebellion in Budapesht. He explained how they used pie plates as an antitank weapon.
You put the plate upside down in the street, where it looked exactly like a poorly-concealed antitank mine. Placed properly, the lead Soviet tank would stop upon seeing the mine, which made it a perfect stationary target for his 100mm towed antitank gun, hidden in the ground floor of a nearby building. He claimed that they knocked out several Soviet tanks that way before they ran out of ammunition and he decided it was safer to be well to the west of the Iron Curtain . . .
There are two 'billhooks'. The 'civilian model' is a short, heavy curved blade on a wooden handle of varying length used to trim trees, cut brush, and generally clear land for agriculture. Versions have been found in Greek Bronze Age sites, so it dates 'way back, and versions were used all over Europe and apparently developed separately in India. Modern versions (since the 18th century) are still occasionally issued to military Engineers or Pioneers who have to clear paths, trails, fields of fire, etc through woods.
The military billhook, usually called simply a 'Bill' carried by troops called Billmen, added a point to the curved billhook blade, and then a spike sticking out the opposite side of the point from the blade and put it all on a 6 - 8 foot shaft so that it could act like a spear, halberd, or battle axe. It was said that th curved blade could be used to catch a horseman and pull him out of the saddle, then the spike or point could be used to finosh him off. Swung full-armed, the spike could even punch through thin plate armor. They were used primarily by English armies of the 15th - 16th centuries, most famously at the Battle of Flodden in 1513, where the blades came in handy for cutting off the metal points of the Scottish pikes, reducing the Scots to men holding sticks faced by men with blades, points and axes.
H4run
Deity
Once upon a time, there was a tool named Billhook, Bill was a useful tool that help human peasant to cut wood, branches and small trees. Every peasant in the country love Billhook, and Bill find a solemn in hearts of every hardworking peasant in the country.
But in one unfortunate day, a person with dark imagination put Bill on top of a pole, use him to stroke holes over peoles bodies, cut limbs and slit throat, from that time and on, Billhook never be the same anymore, and Bill move from the heart to a dark corner of peoples mind.
That's a story of Billhook.
GinandTonic
Saphire w/ Schweps + Lime
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Peasant cut many small branch with Bill. Peasant good at this. Give peasant tool know how use, he know how use. With new stabby bit and optional choppy bit, better Bill.
[/silly voice] Also in peacetime with a shorter handle it's a Swiss Army knife for the middle ages.
[/silly voice] Also in peacetime with a shorter handle it's a Swiss Army knife for the middle ages.
Boris Gudenuf
Deity
Funny you mention Swiss Army knife, because for a while in this century, a Bill was issued to NCOs in the Finnish Army infantry, because their army operated in dense woods/swamps along the Soviet/Russian border . . .
Angst
Rambling and inconsistent
So happy that the ask paid off guys lmao, truly <3 It's always a good read.
A slight digression. The full study is attached.
Abstract
Medieval gunpowder recipes of potassium nitrate (KNO3), charcoal (C), and sulfur (S8) were investigated by bomb calorimetry to determine their enthalpies of combustion and by differential scanning calorimetry (DSC) to determine their pre-ignition and propagative ignition enthalpies. Various sample preparation methods and several additional ingredients were also tested to determine any effects on the thermodynamic values. Gunpowder recipes were prepared and used in a replica cannon that was manufactured and operated according to medieval records. Post-firing residues were collected from the bomb calorimeter and the cannon in efforts to further characterize recipe energetics using DSC. In general, during the period of 1338–1400, the %KNO3 increased, and heats of combustion decreased, while between 1400 and 1460, the %KNO3 decreased, and heats of combustion increased. However, since KNO3 was usually found in the post-bomb calorimetry and post-cannon firing residues, it was not the limiting reactant. The highest pre-ignition and propagative ignition energies occurred when the KNO3:S8 ratio was 3:1 as determined by DSC, and the highest enthalpies of combustion were measured for recipes where the KNO3:C ratio was 1:1 as determined by bomb calorimetry.
Abstract
Medieval gunpowder recipes of potassium nitrate (KNO3), charcoal (C), and sulfur (S8) were investigated by bomb calorimetry to determine their enthalpies of combustion and by differential scanning calorimetry (DSC) to determine their pre-ignition and propagative ignition enthalpies. Various sample preparation methods and several additional ingredients were also tested to determine any effects on the thermodynamic values. Gunpowder recipes were prepared and used in a replica cannon that was manufactured and operated according to medieval records. Post-firing residues were collected from the bomb calorimeter and the cannon in efforts to further characterize recipe energetics using DSC. In general, during the period of 1338–1400, the %KNO3 increased, and heats of combustion decreased, while between 1400 and 1460, the %KNO3 decreased, and heats of combustion increased. However, since KNO3 was usually found in the post-bomb calorimetry and post-cannon firing residues, it was not the limiting reactant. The highest pre-ignition and propagative ignition energies occurred when the KNO3:S8 ratio was 3:1 as determined by DSC, and the highest enthalpies of combustion were measured for recipes where the KNO3:C ratio was 1:1 as determined by bomb calorimetry.
TheMeInTeam
If A implies B...
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How "common" axes are depends whether we're going to distinguish between their use as a tool vs combat. There were axes purpose-built for combat, but I'm not sure they were more common than swords. If you include tools that were brought to combat out of necessity/because it's a hell of a lot better than nothing, then I would expect axes to be more common. Easier to make, usable in daily life, and reasonably lethal (even if not used perfectly) with minimal training. Still offers some of the striking power/blunt trauma available to maces, too.
For dedicated military AFAIK spear/polearm variants are king, way more use than anything else, but swords were still pretty common as a sidearm.
Japanese and Chinese equipment was different aesthetically from European, but their functional roles/designs were (perhaps unsurprisingly) similar. Japan for example had trained soldiers use stuff like bows/polearms (these were the actual primary battlefield weapons of samurai, for example). They also had a big reinforced club to serve the same job of "blunt force trauma against armor" that blunt instruments did in the west.
I haven't read/seen much about medieval equipment in Iran, Middle East, etc...but these places were in regular contact with their surroundings and not removed from wars with them. I would be very surprised if we didn't see mostly similar weapon roles.
IIRC Sub-Saharan Africa had enough differences that it would be logistically challenging/impractical to do European or Asian medieval-style warfare there. Bows and spears yes, but equipment otherwise depends a lot on where in Africa we're talking about. A group of heavily armored knights would run roughshod on such a battlefield, if you could teleport them there, keep them fed/supplied with bad river access, and keep them alive vs malaria. Good luck with that otherwise.
Lexicus
Deity
Boris Gudenuf
Deity
@Birdjaguar : Fascinating!
Some time ago I saw some studies of the 'gunpowder' formulas from early Chinese texts: I think the earliest complete formula was Tang Dynasty, around 808 CE, with others from the 10th and 11th centuries, and all of them had too low a percentage/proportion of potassium nitrate to be true explosives - they were incendiary mixtures, and could propel rockets and fireworks, but gave too low a rate of combustion to be 'true' explosive propellants.
However, in 1132 CE the Song Dynasty forces at a siege are described using a huolong - "hand cannon", and this may be the first evidence anywhere of a gunpowder-propelled Firearm used in battle, so their formulas had changed sufficiently in about 100 years to give them a gunpowder propellant for such weapons.
Ironically, just two centuries later, in 1326 CE, a pot-de-fer, or small cannon is described in an Ordinance from Florence, Italy, so 'gunpowder firearms' had spread from one end of the Eurasian continent to the other.
And should point out that the great "additional advance" after gunpowder propellant was the publication of Benjamin Robin's New Principles of Gunnery in 1742 CE. Robins invented the Ballistic Pendulum to accurately measure velocity of bullets and so construct accurate 'Firing Tables' for artillery. He also discovered in his experiments and measurements the real importance and effect of air resistance (External Ballistics) on cannon balls, which had been missed by everybody back to Aristotle (who knew that moving something through the air or water caused resistance and a change in velocity, but no one could ever measure the amount and effect before). Basically, abut 1/3 to 1/2 of the gunpowder propellant was being wasted, because high initial velocity of the cannonball dropped dramatically from Drag and had no real effect on range or force on the target. Lowering the velocity was more efficient at the effective ranges, used a lot less powder, and required much less thick or strong cannon barrels. He also introduced the use of Newtonian Calculus for more precise calculation of trajectories so that gunnery became far more accurate and predictable at all ranges - and calculus became a required subject at all the new European Artillery Schools that were being founded in the mid to late 18th century.
The most obvious physical effect was the new French Systeme Gribeauval of artillery pieces introduced in 1765 CE, which were much lighter and more mobile, more accurate, faster firing, and easier to manufacture using standardized carriages and gun mounts. They were the model for all future artillery systems.
Andrade in his book Gunpowder Age also postulates that it was Robin's revelations that marked the real point where Europeans leaped past China and the rest of the world in gunpowder/firearms technology, so that by the early 19th century European cannon and firearms were far, far superior to anything in East Asia and the Chinese and Japanese both had to work hard to catch up - which the Chinese never quite managed before the revolution that tossed out the last Imperial Dynasty, and the Japanese did not manage until the 20th century.
Sorry for a long and semi-technical post, but I used to teach at the US Army's Artillery School, so any mention of ballistics, gunpowder or cannon sort of sets off a Pavlovian Response . . .
Some time ago I saw some studies of the 'gunpowder' formulas from early Chinese texts: I think the earliest complete formula was Tang Dynasty, around 808 CE, with others from the 10th and 11th centuries, and all of them had too low a percentage/proportion of potassium nitrate to be true explosives - they were incendiary mixtures, and could propel rockets and fireworks, but gave too low a rate of combustion to be 'true' explosive propellants.
However, in 1132 CE the Song Dynasty forces at a siege are described using a huolong - "hand cannon", and this may be the first evidence anywhere of a gunpowder-propelled Firearm used in battle, so their formulas had changed sufficiently in about 100 years to give them a gunpowder propellant for such weapons.
Ironically, just two centuries later, in 1326 CE, a pot-de-fer, or small cannon is described in an Ordinance from Florence, Italy, so 'gunpowder firearms' had spread from one end of the Eurasian continent to the other.
And should point out that the great "additional advance" after gunpowder propellant was the publication of Benjamin Robin's New Principles of Gunnery in 1742 CE. Robins invented the Ballistic Pendulum to accurately measure velocity of bullets and so construct accurate 'Firing Tables' for artillery. He also discovered in his experiments and measurements the real importance and effect of air resistance (External Ballistics) on cannon balls, which had been missed by everybody back to Aristotle (who knew that moving something through the air or water caused resistance and a change in velocity, but no one could ever measure the amount and effect before). Basically, abut 1/3 to 1/2 of the gunpowder propellant was being wasted, because high initial velocity of the cannonball dropped dramatically from Drag and had no real effect on range or force on the target. Lowering the velocity was more efficient at the effective ranges, used a lot less powder, and required much less thick or strong cannon barrels. He also introduced the use of Newtonian Calculus for more precise calculation of trajectories so that gunnery became far more accurate and predictable at all ranges - and calculus became a required subject at all the new European Artillery Schools that were being founded in the mid to late 18th century.
The most obvious physical effect was the new French Systeme Gribeauval of artillery pieces introduced in 1765 CE, which were much lighter and more mobile, more accurate, faster firing, and easier to manufacture using standardized carriages and gun mounts. They were the model for all future artillery systems.
Andrade in his book Gunpowder Age also postulates that it was Robin's revelations that marked the real point where Europeans leaped past China and the rest of the world in gunpowder/firearms technology, so that by the early 19th century European cannon and firearms were far, far superior to anything in East Asia and the Chinese and Japanese both had to work hard to catch up - which the Chinese never quite managed before the revolution that tossed out the last Imperial Dynasty, and the Japanese did not manage until the 20th century.
Sorry for a long and semi-technical post, but I used to teach at the US Army's Artillery School, so any mention of ballistics, gunpowder or cannon sort of sets off a Pavlovian Response . . .
Sarin
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Oh, I wouldn't be so sure. IIRC ancient Greeks credited the Skythians, or other steppe tribes, with invention of war axe, called sagaris. Throughout the Eurasian steppe, Persian empires and nearby cultures, war axe was most common sidearm among those who could afford it, along with mace. This in fact persisted in Middle East all the way to early modern period. Tabar, usually all-metal battle axe, was very common throughout Islamic world, perhaps as much as more popularized variety of curved swords which mostly gained traction when varieties of scimitar spread from the steppe with Turkic and Mongol people. In Europe, while arming sword was a status symbol they became ill-suited for battlefield use and many knights used axes and maces on battlefield even before advent of articulated plate armour. Richard I, Robert the Bruce, and many other kings and important figures were recorded as using and preferring axe on the battlefield. It was even common sidearm of cavalry during English Civil War.
Lexicus
Deity
It seems clear our real task now is to find some contrived historical justification for swordsmen having a +10% city attack bonus in Civ 4.
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