Banning the "apostasy" label

El_Machinae

Colour vision since 2018
Retired Moderator
Joined
Nov 24, 2005
Messages
48,283
Location
Pale Blue Dot youtube=wupToqz1e2g
There is a Muslim group in Canada that is currently requesting that the label "apostate" be banned if used to inspire violence or hatred. I find this to be an interesting development.

In their opinion, being labelled as 'apostate' reduces their security. They have received death threats from people, and they believe that these threats are from people who consider them to be 'drifters' from Islam.

So, we can have a Free Speech discussion. Can we get rid of the word 'apostate' or 'heretic' if we reasonably believe that it incites violence against the victim?
 
I think I wold have to agree with the apostate-banners. Having said that, what exactly do they propose? A ban on the term?

Can you supply a link to the story? Haven't found a good on on google...
 
Mr. Conformist: I think that's what he means. I think that he wants to bring attention to the use of such words as being hate speech.

Che Guava said:
I think I wold have to agree with the apostate-banners. Having said that, what exactly do they propose? A ban on the term?

Can you supply a link to the story? Haven't found a good on on google...

It should be on CTV news (their news-service: channel 24 in Halifax) in a minute. I didn't catch their name, Ravi was doing an interview with the member as a promo.
 
Well, if they want to recognize that the term (and its synonyms) are hate-speech, then I support them fully. Canada should be a place where you can switch faiths without having to worryabout your old congregation coming after you with death threats...
 
"Muslim Canadian Congress" is the group that is asking for help. They're afraid that they're being labelled as blasphemers, and thus in danger.
 
El_Machinae said:
There is a Muslim group in Canada that is currently requesting that the label "apostate" be banned if used to inspire violence or hatred. I find this to be an interesting development.

In their opinion, being labelled as 'apostate' reduces their security. They have received death threats from people, and they believe that these threats are from people who consider them to be 'drifters' from Islam.

So, we can have a Free Speech discussion. Can we get rid of the word 'apostate' or 'heretic' if we reasonably believe that it incites violence against the victim?

I don't see how banning the word "apostate" will deter religious violence. It is made clear in the Quran and ahadith the penalty for leaving the Islamic faith.

Quran:

4:89 They long that ye should disbelieve even as they disbelieve, that ye may be upon a level (with them). So choose not friends from them till they forsake their homes in the way of Allah; if they turn back (to enmity) then take them and kill them wherever ye find them, and choose no friend nor helper from among them,”

9:66 Make ye no excuses: ye have rejected Faith after ye had accepted it. If We pardon some of you, We will punish others amongst you, for that they are in sin

16:106 Any one who, after accepting faith in Allah, utters Unbelief,- except under compulsion, his heart remaining firm in Faith - but such as open their breast to Unbelief, on them is Wrath from Allah, and theirs will be a dreadful Penalty.


Supported in the Sahih Hadith:

Bukhari Volume 6, Book 61, Number 577:
I heard the Prophet saying, "In the last days (of
the world) there will appear young people with foolish thoughts
and ideas. They will give good talks, but they will go out of
Islam as an arrow goes out of its game, their faith will not exceed
their throats. So, wherever you find them, kill them, for there
will be a reward for their killers on the Day of Resurrection."

Bukhari Volume 4, Book 63, Number 260:
Ali burnt some people and this news reached Ibn 'Abbas,
who said, "Had I been in his place I would not have burnt
them, as the Prophet said, 'Don't punish (anybody) with Allah's
Punishment.' No doubt, I would have killed them, for the Prophet
said, "If somebody (a Muslim) discards his religion, kill
him."


A better solution would be for this Muslim group to begin a movement, gain recognition and influence among the true moderates and finally take this matter all the way to the prominent Islamic interpretators and commentators. Call for these verses and narrations to be collectively modernized, reinterpreted or omitted.
 
I think the idea is to get people to stop with the shouting. This would allow cooler heads to prevail.

Thanks Mott.
 
The problem isn't even with rhetoric, but with semantics. According to the Catholic Church I am a heretic. I do not dispute this because if they are what they say they are, then I ama heretic. Likewise, if my religion is what it claims to be, then they are apostates.
 
The death penalty for apostasy is a central tenet of the Islamic faith , following an example set by their Prophet himself .

Ram Swarup said:
Eight men of the tribe of ’Ukl became Muslims and emigrated to Medina. The climate of Medina did not suit them. Muhammad allowed them “to go to the camels of sadaqa and drink their milk and urine” (urine was considered curative). Away from the control of the Prophet, they killed the shepherds, took the camels and turned away from Islam. The Prophet sent twenty ansArs after them with an expert tracker who could follow their footprints. The apostates were brought back. “He [the Holy Prophet] got their hands cut off, and their feet, and put out their eyes, and threw them on the stony ground until they died” (4130). Another hadIs adds that while on the stony ground “they were asking for water, but they were not given water” (4132).

Brutality after brutality , is it not ? All done by God's great messenger .

The numbers in brackets are the Hadith numbers , in case anyone wants to check .

This is rather disgusting to me , with my Hindu ideals of tolerance , debate , and religious freedom . And I assume that it will also be disgusting to anybody who believes in those ideals .
 
I do not think we should ban words because of an unintended temporary effect. Language is a tool and you should not ban the hammer because someone once unproperly wield it.
 
The Last Conformist said:
Nah. The problem is with intolerance; with people who can't accept others who decide to abandon their belief.

Adi Shankara was the greatest defender of the Vedic branch of the Hindu continuoum there ever was till now , and most probably ever will be . He was totally incapable of accepting others who did not agree with him . So he suppressed them all . And now I will relate how he did that .

You'll be expecting a story full of carnage , most probably , with Adi Shankara being some king who used his army to ruthlessly exterminate the "infidels" , or something like that . What you'll find is its intellectual parallel .

He undertook a tour of India , debating all the scholars he met along the way in the great Indian tradition of the loser accepting the winner's idea . This was possible only because nobody could give faith-based arguments , saying that "God said so and that's that" - the loser would always be convinced himself of the rightness of what the winner said . He defeated them all .

Contrast this with how some other faiths deal with dissent . A Buddha and Adi Shankara could only have been born in India - this is the only place which had that sort of freedom since the very beginning .
 
El_Machinae said:
I think the idea is to get people to stop with the shouting. This would allow cooler heads to prevail.

Thanks Mott.


Banning the word apostate will stop the intolerance? I don't understand.
 
I think it's more the use of the word that would be banned. A cleric calling someone an apostate is a declaration that that person should die, or it can reasonably be interpreted thusly.

I don't fully understand what the MCC is trying to do, either. It certainly seems interesting though, to put legal strictures against Islam to prevent death warrants from being made.
 
aneeshm said:
The death penalty for apostasy is a central tenet of the Islamic faith , following an example set by their Prophet himself .



Brutality after brutality , is it not ? All done by God's great messenger .

The numbers in brackets are the Hadith numbers , in case anyone wants to check .

This is rather disgusting to me , with my Hindu ideals of tolerance , debate , and religious freedom . And I assume that it will also be disgusting to anybody who believes in those ideals .

I hope you find a better example. In this story those people that left islam also killed people for no reason.
 
Back
Top Bottom