Belarus riots

[Lexicus]

To make it clear I am more Pro-Russian than I am pro-US. I take shame in my country allowing to place foreign (namely american) troops inside of our sovereign territory. I think we are being used by americans (on political, military covert etc. fronts) and I hate that. Not to say we have to pay taxes to support those troops, which we are now unwittingly inviting. This is a view I formed over years, at first I was stupid and yelled "go US! , go EU!" - to my shame.

Are you aware of the history of your country's relationship with Russia?

I'll just mention that when I play as the USSR in HOI4, the only thing stopping me from gobbling up any country in Eastern Europe is a British, French, or American guarantee of their independence, meaning they will declare war on me if I declare war on that country.

 

[Zardnaar]

Are you aware of the history of your country's relationship with Russia?

I'll just mention that when I play as the USSR in HOI4, the only thing stopping me from gobbling up any country in Eastern Europe is a British, French, or American guarantee of their independence, meaning they will declare war on me if I declare war on that country.

This.

USSR enabled the Nazis.

 

[Patine]

This.

USSR enabled the Nazis.

That's the same roundabout argument as saying David Lloyd George, Woodrow Wilson, and Georges Clemenceau enabled the Nazis by making the Treaty of Versailles so ridiculously punitive and humiliating it inevitably led the Nazis - or another potential populist dictator - to power in Germany in response to it.

 

[Zardnaar]

That's the same roundabout argument as saying David Lloyd George, Woodrow Wilson, and Georges Clemenceau enabled the Nazis by making the Treaty of Versailles so ridiculously punitive and humiliating it inevitably led the Nazis - or another potential populist dictator - to power in Germany in response to it.

Should have clarified it more. Stalin enabled the invasion of his own country.

1. He gave them a common border.
2. He exported enough oil to them to fuel the Wehrmacht.

Also Germany could pay the treaty. Hitler spent more on rearmament than the total cost of the Treaty.

Germany paid very little of the treaty anyway, people are buying into Nazi propaganda all these years later.

 

[EnglishEdward]

That's the same roundabout argument as saying David Lloyd George, Woodrow Wilson, and Georges Clemenceau enabled the Nazis by making the Treaty of Versailles so ridiculously punitive and humiliating it inevitably led the Nazis - or another potential populist dictator - to power in Germany in response to it.

The Treaty of Versailles wasn't really punitive.

The German reparations were only about a quarter of the
war debt that the British Empire had run up with the USA.

The humiliation of the Germans was in losing the war.

 

[Zardnaar]

The Treaty of Versailles wasn't really punitive.

The German reparations were only about a quarter of the
war debt that the British Empire had run up with the USA.

The humiliation of the Germans was in losing the war.

Germans didn't want to pay it. They weasled out of most of it pre Hitler.

Imagine if they did pay it off instead and had Weimar borders in the EU.

As per usual the right wingers didn't want to pay tax and/or preferred spending it on the military.

Not much has changed.

UK paid off their war debt 2005 iirc.

 

[red_elk]

2. He exported enough oil to them to fuel the Wehrmacht.

You lying intentionally now, are you?
We've been discussing it not so long ago, only a few percents of Nazi oil consumption was covered by USSR exports and only in 1939-1940.

 

[Zardnaar]

You lying intentionally now, are you?
We've been discussing it not so long ago, only a few percents of Nazi oil consumption was covered by USSR exports and only in 1939-1940.

It was enough.

1 million barrels exported, Wehrmacht reserve was around 1 million barrels.

And the got the border as well, before that the Baltic States and Poland were independent.

Hell Hitler spent more than a few years trying to get the Poles onside swapping land he wanted in Poland for land carved out of the USSR.

Nazis basically ran out of oil in 1942.

 

[Crezth]

It's not part of police procedure though is it?

Does it happen yes. But in actual police states it's encouraged and there's no checks and balances.

You can rip on Trump as much as you want and he doesn't control the media that live crapping all over him. Fair enough he deserves it.

Big difference.

Not only does it happen but it's encouraged by systematic aversion to prosecuting police, legal immunity (qualified immunity), and other institutional protections for police gangster-brotherhood.

It's only a difference because you want it to be. Point is I'm calling you out on your double-standard.

 

[red_elk]

And the got the border as well, before that the Baltic States and Poland were independent.

All what Stalin did was pushing them back further from Moscow by ~200 km. Poland was already defeated by mid-September.

 

[Zardnaar]

Not only does it happen but it's encouraged by systematic aversion to prosecuting police, legal immunity (qualified immunity), and other institutional protections for police gangster-brotherhood.

It's only a difference because you want it to be. Point is I'm calling you out on your double-standard.

It's not really the higher ups directly ordering the cops to do that.

The cops can also get charged and/or fired.

There's a big difference between the crap cops in USA and actual police states.

US system is flawed, very flawed. But Belarus doesn't even have those systems where the cops are pretty much can do whatever with no repercussions whatsoever.

 

[Zardnaar]

All what Stalin did was pushing them back further from Moscow by ~200 km. Poland was already defeated by mid-September.

The invasion wouldn't have happened without Stalin's deal.

And they gave the Germans critical supplies as well. They couldn't source that oil anywhere else not could they really take it out from elsewhere in the German war economy.

They had massive fuel problems as is in 1941/42. Baku basically win the war for the USSR. No Baku no fuel for those T-34s.

 

[red_elk]

It would. Hitler was determined to continue expansion.

 

[Zardnaar]

It would. Hitler was determined to continue expansion.

Perhaps but he would have very little fuel come 1942 where they ran out of gas more or less anyway.

French campaign was the only one they finished with more fuel than they started.

Why do you think they went to Stalingrad to begin with? They were after the fuel. German troops reached that buddist republic whose name I forget.

 

[EnglishEdward]

Hitler relied primarily on Rumania for fuel as they had not properly discovered
the then Italian Libyan oil reserves, later on they synthesised fuel from coal.

 

[Zardnaar]

Hitler relied primarily on Rumania for fuel as they had not properly discovered
the then Italian Libyan oil reserves, later on they synthesised fuel from coal.

Romania's production wasn't that high.

They had all the fuel they needed in Libua but the oilfields weren't developed and even if they were they lacked the shipping.

By some miracle even if the took Iraq they had no way of exploiting it.

Taking Baku similar idea but denying it to the USSR would almost win the war right there.

Basically they were screwed no matter what.

 

[EnglishEdward]

The Nazis were screwed because Winston Churchill wouldn't give them the peace they wanted.

If another conservative leader had been in power and signed a peace treaty, Hitler would have beaten the USSR.

 

[Zardnaar]

The Nazis were screwed because Winston Churchill wouldn't give them the peace they wanted.

If another conservative leader had been in power and signed a peace treaty, Hitler would have beaten the USSR.

Maybe if they could still trade namely fuel.

 

[AdamCrock]

Are you aware of the history of your country's relationship with Russia?

I'll just mention that when I play as the USSR in HOI4, the only thing stopping me from gobbling up any country in Eastern Europe is a British, French, or American guarantee of their independence, meaning they will declare war on me if I declare war on that country.

I am aware of that. When Hitler attacked us however what have they done ? We have given Allies nearly a month to react and ? Nothing ... Declarations are one thing but actions are actions. To tell the truth Russia was no better during that time - They've attacked us on September 17 - sealing the deal on Ribbentrop-Molotov. I am not saying that we should bow to Russia either. I am saying that we shouldn't allow either super-power to do as they please. Stationing military troops in out country is too far imho. Speaking of history : when we have once allowed the Teutonic Order to build castles and station armies inside our borders they've soon demanded more and more - which has led to war.

 

[Crezth]

It's not really the higher ups directly ordering the cops to do that.

The cops can also get charged and/or fired.

There's a big difference between the crap cops in USA and actual police states.

US system is flawed, very flawed. But Belarus doesn't even have those systems where the cops are pretty much can do whatever with no repercussions whatsoever.

You're just wasting time. For every cop in the US that's convicted hundreds go free. That's not a few bad apples. That's a systemic problem with a sophisticated release valve.