Best Creative Leader

[Fippy]

None of this is to say that I feel oromos are a top tier UU; that's the land of quechas, chariot UUs, prats, and keshiks.

If they could compete with Cuirs they would be a very top UU, cos there must be more peoples than me who won plenty deity games (on random and sometimes poor maps too) with Cuirs.

So your comparison earlier in the post lacks depth.
Also putting Keshiks higher than Oromos would mean that all praises for them are...blah blub.
I can show you early Cuirs domination, can you show me Oromo?
On deity maps with no "special" starts, of course.

 

[Strickl3r]

Yes, nearly everything posted in this thread is subjective to some degree at least. Cuirrassier rush is just as boring and effective in Civ IV and BtS as Infinite City Sprawl (ICS) was in earlier versions of Civ (pre-Vanilla IV). I agree that Cuirrassier rush is irrelevant, since there is no creative leader with a unique unit based on the Cuirrassier. On the other hand, how quickly one can win is very much a primary goal in deciding which creative leader is the best (which can be said to be the sole reason for the existence of this particular thread).

Sun Tzu Wu

I bet you that HA or Elepult rushes with Sury on average result in earlier victorys than any kind of approach with Zara Jakob that involves gunpowder as an initial attack. So with your own argumentation Sury must be a better leader than Zara(which he is anyway)
+ he has a great UB

€: Hatty and Willem are also better anyway and that is nowhere near subjective. I can't really believe that there is a real argument about wether Zara Jakob with his cheap buildings and mediocre UU is better than those two top tier leaders.

Maybe it's really just the point that long time players are eventually bored of traits like financial or units like cuirrassiers and nothing else. So to keep the game more interesting for themselves they value stuff that is clearly 2nd or 3rd best more, because it's more entertaining.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

I can show you early Cuirs domination, can you show me Oromo?

That you are more skillful than me does not make an objectively sound or logical argument. HR_Oscar showed us an early "knights and musket as best unit" domination based on the engineering bulb; certainly, he could have used added oromos instead of muskets for that very early win on deity standard (by the way, Willem can not do that because he starts with fishing ).

It's also worth pointing out that framing the strength of the oromo within the scope of deity/normal and no "special" settings is extremely biased. It ignores different speeds and emphatically relies on using the single most broken stock mechanic in civ IV: tech trades. Without that, "gunpowder" and "MT + gunpowder" are not so close. However, in contrast the Dutch UU is still consistently locked into only being relevant on water maps. Incidentally, Deity/Normal/standard also inflates the importance of FIN while damaging that of ORG. Making such a point is akin to pointing out that Cyrus is actually pretty weak in modern era starts.

Deity isn't even the most common setting for the highest level of play, which is MP against other good players.

If you're going to point out that my comparison lacks depth, it doesn't make sense to then talk about doing a comparison that is grossly lacking in depth .

Hatty and Willem are also better anyway and that is nowhere near subjective.

Of course it's subjective, and settings dependent. Hatty has the best probability of a dominant opening at least.

 

[Izuul]

I would disagree on the tech trading bit. When I lib MT I often don't trade anything beyond CS until after the fact. IMO it's Lib and the fact that many of the beakers can be bulbed that makes them close.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

Tech trades allow for a multiplier no arrangement of buildings can match. Often techs are sold for without a second thought, esp AI fail gold on wonders. Yes, if you have a booming econ you can run away, but you can also match the output of a fully developed empire with 2k+ beakers per turn with 2-3 vassals and directed research trade abuse, and easily.

Also, the really early trades launch people out of the gates, allow diplo padding, and allow easy war bribes. Its influence on the game and human usage over the AI is overwhelming. Literally the only reason the AI can even semi keep up is its willingness to make lulzy lopsided trades it would never make with the human, and even that isn't enough.

 

[Gwaja]

The beauty of Civ games... so much difference in opinion in what may be optimal for one may not be for another... ^_^

Quick comment in regards to Oromos: I am more intrigued by not actually using them, but the possibility of eventually upgrading these guys to rifles and beyond. It's also awesome that even if you draft them, you still get Drill 1 and 2, and with barracks and perhaps Theocracy, you can still tackle on one more promotion on top of what they've got to begin with. Muskets and their equivalent UUs, for me, seem like just a tad bit on the awkward side in terms of its availability and the placement in the tech tree. Makes you think... of playing Unrestricted Leaders and playing as Churchill of Ethiopia... that would be quite fun. Maybe I should try that! ^_^

 

[Izuul]

I wasn't disputing the brokenness of tech trading in general.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

You probably do trade to get things like machinery and engineering, however . I see your point though. Part of cuir appeal is that they're not too far off the bulb efficiency path without much effort.

More and more I seem to do better with a good off math chops though .

 

[drewisfat]

I agree that Cuirrassier rush is irrelevant, since there is no creative leader with a unique unit based on the Cuirrassier. On the other hand, how quickly one can win is very much a primary goal in deciding which creative leader is the best (which can be said to be the sole reason for the existence of this particular thread).

Sun Tzu Wu

I disagree with you on three points here.
1. I measure importance based on securing a win versus time how early a win is. This is obviously an opinion, but it's an important one because HOF players are going to look at things completely different than other people.

2. Cuir rush is not irrelevant. While the Oromo rush is a significant buff to muskets, what is the point of it if they are still not better than cuirs. (You seem to think oromos are still a little better, I think cuirs are a little better (Stronger tech position). Regardless I will at least admit that it's close. But even if they were even, that means oromos aren't adding a real benefit, since you could just go cuirs instead. It's very rare that you cannot secure horses/iron at this point in time. Similarly cataphract rushes can work, but are not necessarily better than cuir rushes, which come soon after. This doesn't make the UU good, it actually makes it near meaningless in a total % game winning sense.

3. Mouseketeers ARE cuir substitutes though. They are not a buff on muskets. By changing the unit to a two-mover it effectively changes what unit it is. Instead of the single mover with option of siege it becomes a two-mover dynamic. Furthermore it's a very significant buff to cuirs, because they are draftable and you can get a head start building them before cuirs sometimes (Depending on tech path). There are also several ways that mouseketeers make cuir rushes more efficient. Most notably.

- Stack defense (b.c of tile defense bonuses)
- Stack defense (in particular against pikes)
- Picking off random pikes the AI has running around.
- Killing weak units for less hammers. This is a very big one. A lot of time cuirs are promoted with the withdrawal promotion, and the first wave of cuirs the point isn't even to kill the units, it's to weaken them for the backup cuirs. Except you don't really need backup cuirs at this point. Mouseketeers are more efficient.

Since musketmen units can be drafted, this means Mousies are using a different production method. This allows the cuir rush to take advantage of both normal production and draft production and makes it extremely strong.

In order for Oromos to be > musketeers you would have to argue that Oromos are significantly stronger than cuir rushes, because musketeers + cuirs are significantly stronger than just cuirs. While cuir rushes might be bland and oromos more fun, I don't think oromos are much better than a normal cuir rush, if at all -- and that is entirely relevant to a debate between oromos and musketeers.

 

[sinimusta]

Deity isn't even the most common setting for the highest level of play, which is MP against other good players.

I would imagine that in mp oromos are significantly better than in sp. Unit that can sustain far more collateral than regular units would be very useful in dealing with enemy counterattack with lots of collateral when attacking. And in defense with the first strikes they would be very annoying to remove since with the first strikes they would often survive unharmed.

 

[Nothingontv]

I wish i could see what level people play on when reading threads like this. Surely it matters when choosing your favorite leader?

The choice for me is between Hatty and Willem. Egypts UU may be strong but in my experience you only have a 1 in 5 chance of getting horses in your BFC (actually it's a bigger chance for CRE leaders but it's still a gamble).
Willem's UU might be decent in theory but in my games i have never seen an advantage over galleons.

If i look at how i actually do with these leaders i would have to choose Willem.

 

[Sun Tzu Wu]

1. I will concede that winning is obviously better than losing. It should be almost as clear that winning earlier is better than winning later. I don't see how anyone interested in competitive play could say otherwise. Does one use the winning turn/date or score for determing which win is better than another win? The Firaxis definition of score is weighted heavily in favor of population which which most players agree is not the best game metric for comparisons. Most players would agree that the win turn/date is a better metric for comparisons. This is the metric that SGOTM uses and it is also the metric most often used in the GOTM within each victory condition.

2. I will concede that Cuirassier rush is the best mid-game military strategy versus AI opponents, provided one is able to secure horse and iron strategic resources. It probably applies exclusively to normal speed though. Cuirassiers may not be enough on quick speed. There may be other quivker/better strategies for epic an marathon games. At any game speed, Cuirassiers will be far later than Musketmen based units, since one does need Code of Laws, Philosophy, Aesthetics, Literature, Music, Nationalism or Military Tradition to build musketmen or unique units based on them such as Oromo Warriors. Nationalism is only needed to draft them. Aethetics, Literature and Music are not needed to draft Oromo Warriors. So your point that Cuirassiers come shortly after musketmen based units is in general false. One can acquire Military Tradition before Gunpowder, but that doesn't mean that Gunpowder can't be acquired much earlier than both Gunpowder and Military Tradition.

3. Some players are so dependent on the Cuirassier rush they seem to think only in terms of getting Military Tradition from Liberalism, doing the GS bulbs necessary to get there. Everthing else centers on what can help make this strategy better rather than seeking out new strategies. This is exacting the reasoning behind using drafted musketeers to damage defenders rather than use more expensive Cuirassiers with flanking promotions to do the same thing. The trouble with this idea is musketeers ard being used as fodder or to hold cities newly captured. Musketeers are being used in a synergistic way in the Cuirasser rush and I do indeed agree with and applaud such use. However, such use can not be used as an argument that Musketeers are better than Oromo Warriors. One could argue that Musketeers have some synergy with a Cuirassier rush due to their two move capability, but that does not make them a better front line unit like the Oromo Warrior.

Sun Tzu Wu

 

[Fippy]

Bashing Cuirs has become rather common here.
Those moaning about them usually act like they are so easy, i would suggest they open a window and realize there's no higher glory in cannons, Jumbos, Trebs, UUs and so on..

Nobody depends on anything here, we just play(ed) what we like at this time. You above everyone else should know that, because when someone makes comments about HoF style maps or games, certain peoples will start their rage here.
They have no problem talking about how others play, thou..grow up.

 

[soundjata]

Truly a raging discussion
Still waiting for the best creative poster though

 

[alex15]

Pericles is one best for cultural victory (without killing other civs) and Pericles is good for roleplaying big cities with huge borders Cre + Phi = cheap Libs and Odeons = alot great Artists,

Also Odeon is one of best UB in game

Compared to the Colosseum which it replaces, there are a number of differences:

+3 Culture
An additional +1 Happiness
Can turn 2 citizens into artists
+1 Happiness from Hit Singles

 

[Izuul]

Oh hey, i remember this thread! This is the one where Willem was vastly overrated and Louis was criminally underrated. Hatty also should've won this poll in a landslide.

2+ years later and my opinion of Zara still hasn't changed either. ORG is average (at best), Hunting + Mining is a pretty average tech pairing, the Oromo is OK but not a real difference maker, and the Stele does nothing for me. Extremely average leader, and I've always found him boring for some reason.

 

[Seraiel]

Lol, Hatty didn't win. She's more than twice as good as any of the other leaders if having Horses.

 

[cseanny]

Hatty by miles. Awesome UU. Amazing starting techs. CRE + SPI is a top tier combo.

 

[Macksideshow]

but does the question include the civ each leader comes from or is it in an unrestricted leaders type situation?

 

[elitetroops]

but does the question include the civ each leader comes from or is it in an unrestricted leaders type situation?

And describe why?

• Other trait
• Unique Unit
• Unique Building
• Starting techs

I think the OP answers that question.