Bigotry towards white males

[Ryika]

Uh, it's not racist to say that white males don't know what it's like to be female, or black. That's a pretty obvious fact.

Thanks for confirming what I said.

"White males", "females" and "blacks" are not groups that share a consciousness, they're individuals that have individual experiences. You're taking characteristics that may or may not be true for the group and ascribing them to the individual to dismiss what they have to say. That's textbook racism.

 

[civver_764]

So you believe that what others perceive as sexism and racism should be defined on your terms, the white male's terms.

Yeah I gotta agree with Ryika, this is racist as hell. Everybody has an opinion about what constitutes sexism and racism, I am not wrong for sharing mine. Instead of arguing with the points I made, you are trying to spin some narrative about how I, as a white male, am trying to suppress other people's opinions. By simply sharing my opinion I am being racist and sexist.

This is a great example of what I'm talking about.

 

[AdrienIer]

No dude, this is not oppression. Those are totally reasonable questions. And statistically, men tend to be the breadwinners so that's going to influence the kinds of questions people ask. That's not oppressive, that's just being aware of reality.

You're still not seeing that the subtext behind those questions is depreciating.

I can just as easily say:

"There is a latent pro-female sentiment in society. Men are "supposed" to work and pay for everything while their wives get to stay home."

The fact is, men and women are both free to do what they want. We can whine all we want about what some people expect us to do, but at the end of the day we are responsible for leading our own lives.

1) working and having a good salary is a sign of good social status in our society.
2) This line of thought leads to thinking that if women have a worse status in society it's their fault. Which means that they're inferior to men. Which is the definition of sexism.
The real situation is that "we're responsible for leading our own lives" is BS, and society's pressure is super strong.

My take on it is that in addition to social pressure, human nature makes most people take example on people around them. So a boy will tend to do as his father, and a girl as her mother. And because mothers have lower social status than fathers it means that there is inherent inertia.

I doubt most people would say that. If they did, I would say "no, it's not." The horror.

I don't remember where I remember that "emasculatin" thing from, but I didn't make it up. I think it was about a guy having a lower salary than his girlfriend. It happens. You don't even need most people to tell you that for it to become seriously annoying. Just 1 guy in 10 who would learn about it would be enough to make anyone angry.

If I told a women "because you are a female I don't think you're qualified to weigh in here" that WOULD be sexist and she SHOULD stand up to me. Being asked completely reasonable questions about your work/life balance is not sexist, and whining about it is frankly pathetic.

But if women get a lot more of "I don't think you're qualified to weigh in here" than men it's ok ?

 

[Lexicus]

This is a discussion forum, isn't it?

Yes, we just tend not to take too kindly to red-pill mutant freaks.

 

[christos200]

Uh, it's not racist to say that white males don't know what it's like to be female, or black. That's a pretty obvious fact.

And females and blacks do not know what it is to be a white male, so they should shut up, right? Is this not the logical conclusion of your argument?

 

[aelf]

Look how this discussion spirals downwards and how triggered the white male snowflakes get. It's pretty pointless and pathetic.

Moderator Action: This is trolling. The only possible effect of a post like this is to make the discussion spiral further downhill. Infracted. - Bootstoots
Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=422889

 

[metalhead]

Thanks for confirming what I said.

"White males", "females" and "blacks" are not groups that share a consciousness, they're individuals that have individual experiences. You're taking characteristics that may or may not be true for the group and ascribing them to the individual to dismiss what they have to say. That's textbook racism.

No, I was tracing Civver's obvious ignorance to its obvious source - the fact that he doesn't have the types of experiences that people are talking about. That's not racist. Nowhere did I say a white male can't possibly have a useful perspective on racism or sexism. However, an ignorant perspective is always going to lead to a worthless opinion. You're just glomming on to that, and I'm assuming you don't see the irony of crying "That's racist!" to try to shut down my point.

Everybody has an opinion about what constitutes sexism and racism, I am not wrong for sharing mine. Instead of arguing with the points I made, you are trying to spin some narrative about how I, as a white male, am trying to suppress other people's opinions. By simply sharing my opinion I am being racist and sexist.

You're not trying to suppress their opinions, but you are refusing to give any credence to their point of view, and I think it's quite clear that that stems from not having had any of those experiences yourself. You can share your opinion any time you want, but people are free to respond by telling you that your opinion is ignorant. You seem to not only want to share your opinion, but believe you have a right to have your opinion given weight and be taken seriously, regardless of its merit. That's not how any of this works.

And females and blacks do not know what it is to be a white male, so they should shut up, right? Is this not the logical conclusion of your argument?

No, that's a stupid thing to say. I'm not even sure what that is supposed to mean.

 

[civver_764]

You're not trying to suppress their opinions, but you are refusing to give any credence to their point of view, and I think it's quite clear that that stems from not having had any of those experiences yourself. You can share your opinion any time you want, but people are free to respond by telling you that your opinion is ignorant. You seem to not only want to share your opinion, but believe you have a right to have your opinion given weight and be taken seriously, regardless of its merit. That's not how any of this works..

Ok, so you're not going to respond to the actual point I made then.

 

[Lexicus]

I think it's quite clear that that stems from not having had any of those experiences yourself.

Judging from his posts I don't think it's "lack of experience," it's active malice. Posts 160 for example contains textbook gaslighting. I would guess that civver probably abuses whatever women are in his life, assuming any woman would actually have anything to do with him.

Moderator Action: This is getting too personal. Stick to discussing the thread topic, rather than throwing out accusations about each others' love lives. FP

 

[christos200]

I just love the fact that so many on the left in this thread use tribalism and racialism as arguments. They see people not as individuals but as members of a race/tribe and when their identity politics backfire and lead to the other side adopting identity politics too they cry 'racism'. This may come as a surprise to the left but not all white males think alike nor do all females or blacks think alike. They are individuals with their own personality.

No, that's a stupid thing to say. I'm not even sure what that is supposed to mean.

I am only repeating your argument and bringing it to its logical conclusion. If you find my post stupid it is because your argument is stupid, since I did nothing more but apply your argument to females and blacks too.

 

[metalhead]

Ok, so you're not going to respond to the actual point I made then.

Which point is it that you would like me to respond to, exactly? I mean, you don't see it as sexist that women end up with the lion's share of child care duties, for example. Or that women/girls being told that they don't have a mind for science or math isn't sexism because it "probably happens to boys too."

I am only repeating your argument and bringing it to its logical conclusion. If you find my post stupid it is because your argument is stupid, since I did nothing more but apply your argument to females and blacks too.

You obviously didn't understand the argument. Your post made zero sense because you didn't even say about what that females and blacks should shut up. It certainly wasn't a logical conclusion to anything, unless you care to explain the logic?

 

[christos200]

You obviously didn't understand the argument. Your post made zero sense because you didn't even say about what that females and black should shut up. It certainly wasn't a logical conclusion to anything, unless you care to explain the logic?

Your argument was that because while males 'do not know what it is to be female or black', they should not have opinions and arguments on such issues. So I asked if this means that, since females and blacks do not know what it is to be white male, they should also not have opinions and arguments on issues affecting this group.

 

[metalhead]

Your argument was that because while males 'do not know what it is to be female or black', they should not have opinions and arguments on such issues.

That wasn't my argument, you misunderstood it. As I suspected.

 

[AdrienIer]

I just love the fact that so many on the left in this thread use tribalism and racialism as arguments. They see people not as individuals but as members of a race/tribe and when their identity politics backfire and lead to the other side adopting identity politics too they cry 'racism'. This may come as a surprise to the left but not all white males think alike nor do all females or blacks think alike. They are individuals with their own personality.

I just love the fact that so many on the right refuse to see trends of behavior against certain groups. Some groups suffer more than others from certain bias and prejudice, but people on the right don't care.

 

[Lexicus]

I just love the fact that so many on the right refuse to see trends of behavior against certain groups. Some groups suffer more than others from certain bias and prejudice, but people on the right don't care.

They're too busy being the problem to care about solving it.

 

[Ryika]

I just love the fact that so many on the right refuse to see trends of behavior against certain groups.

Just naming an injustice that your opposition is supporting doesn't negate the injustice that your side is promoting.

Both things can be true at the same time. The right is wrong to dismiss claims about minorities having it worse when there is data to back this up, and the left is wrong to categorize individuals into groups and dismissing their opinions (or, in other situations, problems) because of the group they belong to.

 

[caketastydelish]

No, that's a stupid thing to say. I'm not even sure what that is supposed to mean.

Oh brother

 

[metalhead]

Both things can be true at the same time. The right is wrong to dismiss claims about minorities having it worse when there is data to back this up, and the left is wrong to categorize individuals into groups and dismissing their opinions (or, in other situations, problems) because of the group they belong to.

The problem is that a lot of times when you try to explain to people on the right how racism and sexism actually work, and then they spit back some ignorant garbage at you, they accuse you of dismissing them because of their race or politics and not because of their ignorant garbage opinions.

Above is a perfect example. Pointing out the source of someone's ignorance has been misunderstood by an awful lot of people, who don't understand that there is a difference between, "Civver is an ignorant white male," and, "all white males are ignorant." Cake doesn't get it either, but that's OK I guess. What's harder to understand is how people can dismiss the notion of shared experience, that there are experiences shared among people who are women, or who are Black, or who are Black women, on account of being Black and/or a woman. That's not a controversial claim but is somehow being twisted around to be one.

Just because individuals don't all have the same experiences doesn't somehow mean there aren't commonalities to be found. That those commonalities exist because of superficial categories like "race" and "gender" doesn't mean they don't exist.

 

[civver_764]

I mean, you don't see it as sexist that women end up with the lion's share of child care duties, for example.

You say "end up" like they had no choice in the matter. Has it ever occurred to you that a woman might choose for themselves to take on these child care duties? Is there anything stopping them from not having children, or stopping their husband/partner from taking on these duties?

Or that women/girls being told that they don't have a mind for science or math isn't sexism because it "probably happens to boys too."

No, not probably, it DOES happen to boys too. Unfortunately, some kids get unfairly judged by adults, and yes unfortunately this can have negative effects on their lives. I'm not defending that, or denying the effects it had on them. What I take issue with, is that people conflate this to be some kind of conspiracy by men to keep women "in their place".

 

[christos200]

The problem is that a lot of times when you try to explain to people on the right how racism and sexism actually work, and then they spit back some ignorant garbage at you, they accuse you of dismissing them because of their race or politics and not because of their ignorant garbage opinions.

Above is a perfect example. Pointing out the source of someone's ignorance has been misunderstood by an awful lot of people, who don't understand that there is a difference between, "Civver is an ignorant white male," and, "all white males are ignorant."

Well, maybe if you said that "Civver is ignorant" instead of adding "ignorant white male" people would not accuse you of dismissing someone due to his color/gender. You cannot both use identity politics and then whistle innocently.