Blackwater Murderers Go Free On Technicality

I am not sure anyone 'escaped' as you allege, or was even released. Do you have proof of this or are just making another assumption.

I dont assume we killed them all or stashed them all away, I heard we were using Iraqis as informants and some of these people were turned at Abu Ghraib. Do you assume the Iraqis near that prison were ignorant about the abuse before the photos? There were little kids and women in there, did we kill them or send them to Gitmo? We released a bunch of people, same as Gitmo.

Its also human nature to be apathetic after time has passed. The actual event this resulted from was awhile ago.

The new event is these guys walking away... If some guys killed your family and walked would you be apathetic?

Tell you what. When those blackwater guys get assassinated you can claim victory. Hows that?

Aint my victory, its their loss and ours - they'd be dead because we condoned an injustice and our people over there would be in greater danger.

It would to me because there isnt any history of that happening at all. It would be a first.

Nobody has ever sought revenge against the freed killers of their loved ones? No history of that at all?

Ever hear of apathy?

Apathetic is not a word I'd use to describe the several hundred people directly impacted by this incident.

Because I dont think this is the hot topic you think it is.

You still didn't answer the question. How can you "logic"ally argue the effect of these guys walking is long gone?
 
So if there are dead bodies around and the survivors are noncombatants, wouldn't the deaths be non-combat related and thus murder, absent some justification that hasn't been presented here?
No, those are "mall security guards" who just so happen to be ex-Navy Seals and Army Delta Force. And they coincidentally all make 6-figure incomes for doing nothing.

And that isn't "murder". It is just a coincidence they happened to be standing next to all those dead innocent civilians. After all, were any of their ammo casings found at the scene of the mysterious deaths? :lol:
 
I dont assume we killed them all or stashed them all away, I heard we were using Iraqis as informants and some of these people were turned at Abu Ghraib. Do you assume the Iraqis near that prison were ignorant about the abuse before the photos? There were little kids and women in there, did we kill them or send them to Gitmo? We released a bunch of people, same as Gitmo.

So you have no proof then.

Btw, the prison is a big enough place that certain groups were segregated. Even if they did release someone, its not proof that they knew anything.

The new event is these guys walking away... If some guys killed your family and walked would you be apathetic?

As a christian am I not called to forgive?

But if it were separated by enough time and miles, yeah, I probably would be.

Aint my victory, its their loss and ours - they'd be dead because we condoned an injustice and our people over there would be in greater danger.

Its your prediction. I dont agree with it. If nothing happens are you willing to come back and admit you were wrong? I will if some blackwater guy gets assassinated over it.

Nobody has ever sought revenge against the freed killers of their loved ones? No history of that at all?

The odds of it happening are much smaller than you give credit for. Simply because someone did it before is not evidence it will happen in this case.

Apathetic is not a word I'd use to describe the several hundred people directly impacted by this incident.

Do you know them personally then?

You still didn't answer the question. How can you "logic"ally argue the effect of these guys walking is long gone?

Because of the current situation in Iraq is much different that it was when the event occurred.
 
So you have no proof then.

They closed the place, where did they all go?

As a christian am I not called to forgive?

Would you? Assuming everyone else impacted by this incident feels the same way is quite the assumption for someone identifying specious assumptions.

Its your prediction. I dont agree with it. If nothing happens are you willing to come back and admit you were wrong? I will if some blackwater guy gets assassinated over it.

"I dont agree, its a specious assumption"... But you dont back it up Mobby. I know you dont agree, and how would we know if some soldier gets killed because these guys walked? If nothing happens :lol: s--t's happening over there all the time.

The odds of it happening are much smaller than you give credit for. Simply because someone did it before is not evidence it will happen in this case.

Now you're citing odds after telling me it never happened?

Do you know them personally then?

No better than you, and you're telling me they wont seek revenge. I'm saying its likely somebody will.

Because of the current situation in Iraq is much different that it was when the event occurred.

How so? If they're in the process of walking, what exactly about the current situation would deter angered Iraqis from seeking revenge?
 
They closed the place, where did they all go?

Your allegation was that they knew before the photos got leaked, not that they knew after it was shut down.

At least try to be consistent.

Would you? Assuming everyone else impacted by this incident feels the same way is quite the assumption for someone identifying specious assumptions.

Its either forgive or be eaten up by it the way I see it.

"
I dont agree, its a specious assumption"... But you dont back it up Mobby. I know you dont agree, and how would we know if some soldier gets killed because these guys walked? If nothing happens :lol: s--t's happening over there all the time.

I have backed it up....several times know. Simply because you dont recognize that I have doesnt mean I havent.

Like I said, this isnt as published as Abu Graib was and the event all this was based on events that happened well over 2 years ago now. This isnt fresh in the memories anymore, and things have calmed down since then.

Now you're citing odds after telling me it never happened?

I am saying your reference doesnt give much weight to your arguement because it simply isnt widespread. Example: asteroids hit the earth often in earths history...are we going to die from one soon?

Thats how your example works. :lol:

No better than you, and you're telling me they wont seek revenge. I'm saying its likely somebody will.

It happened over 2 years ago. If they havent by now, they arent going to.

How so? If they're in the process of walking, what exactly about the current situation would deter angered Iraqis from seeking revenge?

Again, simply the feeling of getting on with their lives. Which most common people simply desire to.
 
Two former Blackwater guards charged with murdering Afghanis, and some of the victims from the Nisour Square massacre settle out of court.

And two of its mercenaries were killed in the CIA bombing (I guess they were providing "mall security" for covert CIA operations?):

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/01/08/world/asia/08blackwater.html?pagewanted=print

Spoiler :
January 8, 2010

Former Blackwater Guards Charged With Murder

By JAMES RISEN

WASHINGTON — Two former Blackwater security guards were arrested Thursday on murder charges stemming from a shooting in Afghanistan last May that left two Afghans dead and a third wounded, the Justice Department said.

The arrests came just days after a federal district judge dismissed a separate criminal case against four other former Blackwater security guards involved in a 2007 shooting in Nisour Square in Baghdad that left at least 17 Iraqi civilians dead. In that decision, Judge Ricardo M. Urbina offered scathing criticism of the prosecution’s handling of the case.

Thursday’s arrests seemed to signal that the Justice Department did not plan to abandon its scrutiny of Blackwater despite its defeat in the Nisour Square case.

Separately, some of the victims of the Nisour Square shooting have reached a settlement with Blackwater, now known as Xe Services, in several civil lawsuits. The survivors and families of the victims agreed to drop their case in return for an undisclosed financial settlement.

In the criminal case involving Blackwater in Afghanistan, the two former guards — Justin Cannon, 27, of Corpus Christi, Tex., and Christopher Drotleff, 29, of Virginia Beach, Va. — were arrested after being indicted in federal court in Virginia on charges of second-degree murder, attempted murder and firearms violations. At the time of the May 5 shooting in Kabul, the men were working for Paravant LLC, a subsidiary of Xe Services, and under a contract they were assigned to train Afghan soldiers.

Mark Corallo, a spokesman for Xe Services, said the company “immediately and fully cooperated with the government’s investigation of this tragic incident and terminated the individuals involved for violating company policy.”

In a recent interview with The Associated Press, Mr. Drotleff defended his actions in the shooting, saying: “I feel comfortable firing my weapon anytime I feel my life is in danger. That night, my life was 100 percent in danger.”

In Iraq, victims of the Nisour Square shooting said they had accepted the settlement because they worried that it was their last chance for compensation.

Abdel Amir Rahim Jihan, who was shot three times in the legs, said he would receive $30,000.

“Our rights were not redressed,” said Mr. Jihan, 45. “We didn’t achieve victory. But the legal procedures take a long time, and we were given the choice to either settle or not. I did.” He is among at least 10 other victims who accepted the settlement.

Susan Burke, a Washington lawyer representing the victims, declined to comment about the settlement. Xe Services said that the settlement “enables Xe’s new management to move the company forward free of the costs and distraction of ongoing litigation, and provides some compensation to Iraqi families.”

Another group of 10 victims represented by a different law firm said they had not yet been offered settlements.

The Iraqi government, furious that the criminal case in the Nisour Square shootings was dismissed, is considering filing a civil lawsuit against Blackwater in American courts, Iraqi government officials said this week.

Meanwhile, the security company’s involvement in clandestine operations with the Central Intelligence Agency surfaced this week after the disclosure that two of its employees had been killed along with five officers of the C.I.A. and a Jordanian intelligence agent in a suicide bombing at a base in Khost, Afghanistan.

The company’s employees were identified as Jeremy Wise, 35, a former member of the Navy Seals, and Dane Clark Paresi, 46, who had served for years in the Army’s Special Forces. They had been assigned to provide security to C.I.A. officers at Forward Operating Base Chapman in Khost, where a Jordanian double agent acted as a suicide bomber and killed eight people, including the C.I.A.’s chief of the base.

A former Blackwater employee who worked for the company in Pakistan and Afghanistan said that the security personnel were assigned to that base to provide personal security for the C.I.A. officers, especially when they left the base to gather intelligence.

The former Blackwater employee, who asked not to be identified in order to discuss the firm’s operations, said: “The B.W. guys’ only role is to protect the agency personnel when they go downrange to investigate and disseminate intelligence. But they are not used for any of the actual interrogations.”

The C.I.A. has used the Chapman base in Khost to gather information from paid informants on members of the Taliban and Al Qaeda, who are then attacked either by Predator drones or by more conventional American or Afghan forces.
 
Mark Corallo, a spokesman for Xe Services, said the company “immediately and fully cooperated with the government’s investigation of this tragic incident and terminated the individuals involved for violating company policy.”

Blackwater, guilty!

ACORN, innocent!
 
Seperate incident, it in now way diminishes the floor washing your received earlier in this thread.

Its actually not relevant, nobody said Blackwater employees don't commit crimes. Most murderers are employeed by somone. However, just as in the OP article these guys will get a day in court as they should as opposed to your summary execution desires.
 
The survivors and families of the victims agreed to drop their case in return for an undisclosed financial settlement.

Well, so much for trying to allege that victims families didnt get some form of restitution. Apparently they did.
 
The ATS, as far as I am aware, doesn't require crimes against humanity such as genocide, but can be used for less severe war crimes or universally recognized breaches of law or custom.

Yeah, it's not only crimes against humanity, but any jus cogens norm. Disappearing people, for example, is not a crime against humanity, but it's sufficiently universally recognized as a breach of international law that it counts. See Filartiga v. Pena-Irala. Torture and piracy would also count; anything that fits the classic "hostis humanii generis" standard. Slavery, presumably. But the ordinary crimes, like manslaughter, aren't part of that.

Maybe you could argue it was some kind of "massacre," defined as something greater than just the indiscriminate use of force, and try to get it in that way. It's probably worth a shot.

Cleo
 
Your allegation was that they knew before the photos got leaked, not that they knew after it was shut down.

At least try to be consistent.

I said they were turning people there to be informants, those people didn't stay until it was closed. But the fact it was closed and we didn't kill everyone or rejail them all means many were let go, I didn't mean they were all let go together when it closed. It was a prison, people came and went as we figured out who was important and who wasn't. We did the same with Gitmo, and it aint even closed yet. I didn't think it was even debatable. You want me to prove people escaped or were released from Abu Ghraib before the photos came out? I cant, can you prove me wrong? So whats more likely? Prisons have capacities, they take people in and sooner or later they gotta let people go. Especially if intel is using the place to coerce Iraqis to become informants.

Like I said, this isnt as published as Abu Graib was and the event all this was based on events that happened well over 2 years ago now. This isnt fresh in the memories anymore, and things have calmed down since then.

Did you say violence may have increased at the time? These guys are walking now, not 2 years ago - and I imagine the people who had loved ones die that day wont be calmer because they are walking or because you dont think it matters much to them now.

I am saying your reference doesnt give much weight to your arguement because it simply isnt widespread. Example: asteroids hit the earth often in earths history...are we going to die from one soon?

Thats how your example works. :lol:

You're comparing asteroid impacts with people seeking revenge against the killers of their loved ones? Where do you think the law came from? People seeking revenge against the killers of their loved ones! If the law lets them go many people put in the position would seek revenge on a more personal level.

Again, simply the feeling of getting on with their lives. Which most common people simply desire to.

I hope so
 
Did you say violence may have increased at the time? These guys are walking now, not 2 years ago - and I imagine the people who had loved ones die that day wont be calmer because they are walking or because you dont think it matters much to them now.

THe people that had loved ones die got paid an undisclosed (i.e. a lot) amount of money in restitution from Blackwater. Since they took the money, I think they consider it settled.
 
THe people that had loved ones die got paid an undisclosed (i.e. a lot) amount of money in restitution from Blackwater. Since they took the money, I think they consider it settled.
You think the Goldman's considered the OJ matter adequately settled once they won their civil suit?
 
Gee, I wonder why the victims' families "got paid an undisclosed (i.e. a lot) amount of money in restitution" if the mercenaries didn't kill them without a justifiable reason.
 
You think the Goldman's considered the OJ matter adequately settled once they won their civil suit?

Do you really think that a good comparison? Or are you just throwing ideas out there randomly?

Gee, I wonder why the victims' families "got paid an undisclosed (i.e. a lot) amount of money in restitution" if the mercenaries didn't kill them without a justifiable reason.

You know, for someone that purports to believe in 'innocent until proven guilty' you sure havent shown it much in this thread....

So do you assume that settling out of court automatically indicates guilt? Or only in this case?

Btw, the US government pays out such restitution all the time for wrongful combat related deaths. Doesnt mean it was murder or even criminal.
 
Dead bodies, civil damages, no criminal guilt - not a comparison at all. Just randomness.

I didnt say there werent similarities, but really, to try and compare the two situations seriously is just silly.

Btw, I dont think the Goldmans have hired a hitman to kill OJ or anything, so yeah, its about as 'settled' as they are going to get.
 
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