Branch "Yields" - Base Setup: Yields, Professions, Buildings, Experts, ... [IMPLEMENTED]

[raystuttgart]

How about limiting the number of building slots in a city

I want to "limit" it to the bare minimum that I need, which is this:

• Cooking Oil Trader's House

• Confectioner's House

• Leather Taylor's House

• Cloth Taylor's House

Thus I am trying to only add a single row.
(Keeping 2 slots as reserve for the future.)

-----

Everything else will feel very ugly and cramped and would cause lots of player complaints and discussions.
I want to avoid stuff like e.g. having "Chocolate" or "Vanilla" being produced in "Spice Trader's House".

Also I do not want to have e.g. 4 Professions in a single Building.
(I want to keep the Professions per Building reasonably low. In most cases still max 2 with exception of Butcher and Storage House.)

-----

I have already put lots of other Yields in existing Buildings, but the Buildings above I really need.

e.g.
Yerba Tea is now produced in "Tobacco House", which is renamed in "Tobacco and Yerba House".
Dried Peanuts is now also produced in "Storage House".
Hooch is now also produced in "Distiller's House".
....

-----

But for the once above I needed to give them a building of their own.
The Professions simply did not match the Buildings that already existed.

And I really did not want to have too many Buildings with too many Professions.
(The only exception is maybe the Butcher, which has 5 Butcher Professions - 1 for each animal - and 2 Experts now.)

-----

Summary:
I am trying to find the best compromise between gameplay, immersion and UI.
Let me give it a try please. I need to create a first version so we migh further optimize it later.

 

[raystuttgart]

How about limiting the number of building slots in a city

@devolution
Ah, I think I get your point idea now.

Something like

• there might be 50 buildings in total in the game
• but each city might only build 33 of them (due to limited slots)
• thus enforcing specialization and decision making

e.g. Something like:

• If you decide to build "Whale Oil House", you cannot build "Cooking Oil House".
• If you decide to build "Brewer's House", you cannot build "Vintager's House".
• ...

Well, the problem is simply this.

1) It is not immersive and hard to explain why building A should exlcude building B.
2) It is arbitrary limiting and would get us lots of discussions with "completionists".
3) It is much more effort to implement such a system than simply adding a new row in City Screen.

----------

For Buildings that are not related to Economy I have no problem with such a concept.
Small details for specialization are always nice.

E.g. I would be ok with choices like this:
(Non-Production Buildings giving different Bonusses.)

• Chose between a granary or a coal furnace.
• Choose between a fountain or a statue.
• Choose between a park or a jail
• Chose between a school or a military academy
• ....

But considering Production I have my doubts that I would like such choices.
Argumenting with "limited space" feels to arbitrary in a country that is so vast and cities so big.

----------

Summary:
Let me please try to add a new row in City Screen first.
(That single new row should be all I need and still work fine.)

 

[Kathy]

@Kathy
Sorry to annoy you again by asking for another favour.

------

Since I now decided to have a "Cloth Taylor", I would need help to create the building chain.
Basically this Building Chain should hold the following 2 productions:

• Wool Cloth + Coloured Wool Cloth --> Commoner's Clothes
  
• Cotton Cloth + Coloured Cotton Cloth --> Nobleman's Clothes

------

So in the surrounding scene there might be these things:

• Packages of Cloth
• Packages of Coloured Cloth
• Stacks of Commoner's Clothes (little colour)
• Stacks of Nobleman's Clothes (colourful)

Do you already have graphics for this Cloth, e.g. from the goods "units"? It might be helpfull, then I can add them to the building.

Concerning the limited production buildings: Maybe it is a way not to choose between 2 options (whale oil cook or plant oil, ...) but to have a fixed limit of, lets say, 25 factory buildings per colony, so you can always choose which ones you have, but not have all together. Not as you wrote that 2 are mutual excluding, only after the 25th building you may not add a 26th production line.

 

[raystuttgart]

Do you already have graphics for this Cloth, e.g. from the goods "units"?

Please use the Coats in the "Leather Coat Taylor Buildings" (which I had also added to the archive).
I can easily recolour them later, once I have created the "Commoner's Clothes" and "Nobleman's Clothes".

I do not have anything better.
I tried to look but found nothing.

Edit:
Cloth can be found in "Weaver Building".
Just the Clothes do not yet exist.

Maybe it is a way not to choose between 2 options ... but to have a fixed limit of, lets say, 25 factory buildings per colony, ...

Problem is that I simply need to chose where to position them in the City Screen.

There is no such thing as "dynamic positioning".
Each Special Building is always positioned at a certain slot.

Thus I still simply need to create space in the screen to position them.

---

What I could imagine is that the number of buildings is limited by number of citizens which might make sense as gameplay mechanic.
(On the other hand, what should happen if number of citizens drop again ...)

But currently my main focus is really to simply get all that stuff integrated so I can at least test and balance it.
(So I am currently not really focussed on implementing new gameplay mechanics.)

 

[raystuttgart]

Ooooohhh, this Unit graphic looks so cool !
(I love how it moves. These animations are awesome !)

Graphics I used are from the "Pirates mod" of @strategyonly.
(But the original is from Sid Meier's Pirates if I am correct.)

This is going to become the new "Master Clothes Trader".
(Still unbalanced since I have not yet integrated "Commoner's Clothes" and "Nobleman's Clothes")

 

[raystuttgart]

These 2 new Experts are now also integrated in the mod.

Original graphic from @Schmiddie

Original graphic from Tortuga Mod (Fankman)

 

[raystuttgart]

@Kathy:
I attached all our Trade Goods Unit grpahics from WTP. There is Cloth and Coats in there.
I also attached other stuff, because maybe it might be useful for your mods.

 

[raystuttgart]

I Implemented Carl von Linnes as FF for Peanuts.

 

[raystuttgart]

I implemented the next Founding Father: Sir Thomas Gates

He is the new FF for Pigs, Chicken and Geese.
He was one of the first governors of Jamestow.

During his reign tried to establish a self supplying economy, especially for food.
(Because the colony had been almost straving before he arrived.)

 

[Cacaso]

For COAL's FF, maybe we could use:

Alpoim / José Fernandes Pinto Alpoim (1700-1765)

- Engineer/Brigadier Alpoim, was a Portuguese military man who was appointed by the King of Portugal to the "Terço" (which was an artillery regiment) of Rio de Janeiro to command the unit military and teach artillery science. I found a scientific article that says that he worked in the study of gunpowder production, where he defined that one of the best compositions of gunpowder would be 76% saltpeter, 12% sulfur and 12% charcoal.
He wrote a technical book ""Exame of Gunners"" in 1744, on Fires of military interest, researching the different species of gunpowder, their formulations and specific applications in different circumstances.
The article also says that he developed a wet gunpowder production process that could produce lower quality gunpowder, but in a much shorter time than normal production. What could be useful/necessary in an emergency.

So, his power could be some bonus in the production of coal/cannons, or maybe even allowing to use coal to produce cannons. Maybe some promotion for artillery units.


I could not find links that were not in Portuguese, so it will be necessary to use a translation tool.
https://www.scielo.br/j/qn/a/bTryhdnrShqjKHNmLy6ZTDL/?lang=pt
https://pt.wikipedia.org/wiki/José_Fernandes_Pinto_Alpoim
Image:
http://www.toponimiainsulana.com.br/pinto_alpoim.html

 

[raystuttgart]

Alpoim / José Fernandes Pinto Alpoim (1700-1765)

Sounds good, I will check if I find good graphics for him that I can use to create an FF.
Thanks for supporting.

 

[raystuttgart]

... use coal to produce cannons

Coal + Ore will be needed to produce Cannons and Muskets.
(So cannons and Muskets will require also Coal, while Tools and Blades require just Ore.)

That is basically now the purpose of Coal, since the idea to use Coal for Gunpowder was abandoned. <-- There is no Yield "Gunpowder" anymore.
(I was told that Gunpowder is not made of "Stone Coal" but of "Char Coal" being produced of Lumber which is correct. But "Char Coal" was no Yield I wanted to introduce.)

-------

I simply have not yet fully balanced all the Professions for the new Yields.
There is so much todo in this branch that I simply work on whatever comes to my mind at the moment.

Comment:
That is actually good for AI, since it will not have to use its Tools anymore.
It should use its tools to construct Buildings or to equip Pioneers or Settlers.

 

[Kathy]

I am not quite sure if coal really should be a prerequisite for guns. In this time, most metals where also molten with char coal - stone coal was known and used, but not absolutely necessary for bronze and cast iron used for weapons in this time. Using coal or coke for steel production is a process from the beginning industrial age, from 1700 onward.
But it is your mod, so it is your decision how to use it.

 

[raystuttgart]

@Raubwuerger
Please give me feedback until the end of the week if the CityScreen works with 3 rows of Yields as well.
It is really important to know for my concept work. Because depending on that I may have to make a decision.

1) 3 rows does not work in City Screen: Remove Field Workers Tools and Household Goods to add Commoner's Cloths and Nobles Clothes (Bad Case)
2) 3 row in City Screen does work nicely: Keep Field Workers Tools and Household Goods, add Commoner's Cloths, Nobles Clothes and Pottery (Good Case)

Generally I really feel that 3 rows in City Screen as well would be the best solution.
But I need to know if it really works or if it looks so ugly that we can not do it.

 

[raystuttgart]

I am not quite sure if coal really should be a prerequisite for guns.

It solve at least an issue I have never liked:

Consuming Tools to produce Cannons / Guns.
(Which is also an issue for AI because AI needs to use tools othewise.)

Consuming Coal + Ore to produce Cannons / Guns may not be perfect, but it is better.
(And it is simple enough for almost all players to understand it.)

And Charcoal simply does not exist in the concept.
(It felt too superficial if there was already Coal.)

----

Also it would be too complicated for AI to do 3 steps:

• Lumber / Ore
  
• Lumber -> Char Coal
  
• Ore + Charcoal -> Cannons / Muskets

Now it simply has to do 2 steps:

• Coal / Ore
• Coal + Ore -> Cannons / Muskets

----

from 1700 onward.

That is still in the time frame of the mod.
(The mod roughly plays between 1492 and 1783.)

----

Summary:
It is a simplification I know, but things sometimes need to be simplified in a game.
And every player will understand that "Coal" + "Ore" might be used for hard Steel (i.e. Cannons, Muskets)
Because Tools and Blades were still often just weaker Iron-Steel (which did not need really hot Stone Coal)

Thus:
Iron --> Tools, Blades (easy to manufacture, lower price)
Iron + Coal --> Cannons, Muskets (harder to manufacture, higher price)

It is also a decision considering game mechanics and balancing.

• I want to make production of Cannons and Muskets a bit harder for player, still easier for AI.
• Also I want the player to really want to have Coal in late game (but not really need it in early game)
• So in early game he may sell it for cash but in late game keep it for Guns and Cannons.

----

In the end there are pros and cons for everything.
I simply try to find a good compromise for game mechanics, immersion and AI.

 

[raystuttgart]

I had a bit of time in the lunch break.
(Currently working home office.)

So I played a bit with these graphics for a potential "Pottery Building Chain".
(I am not yet 100% sure about it, there is still a lot of experimenting in this branch.)

Graphics are modified graphics of Medieval Conquest mod.
(But I think they were are originally from Mare Nostrum mod.)

Thus "Clay" would become both:

• "Strategic Yield" (required to build some of low level to mid level buildings)
• "Raw Material" to produce "Pottery" (once the mid level buildings are constructed)

So if you would currently not need it for Buildings, you could at least use it for making cash.
(Thus also having a bit more decision making involved.)

Spoiler :

 

[raystuttgart]

This is the Unit I would use as "Master Potter":
(It is not balanced yet, since Yield "Pottery" has not been integrated / created yet.)

The Unit is the "Great Scientist" graphic from Civ4BTS.
(It only got a few slight modifications in textures.)

 

[devolution]

Also it would be too complicated for AI to do 3 steps:

• Lumber / Ore
  
• Lumber -> Char Coal
  
• Ore + Charcoal -> Cannons / Muskets

Now it simply has to do 2 steps:

• Coal / Ore
• Coal + Ore -> Cannons / Muskets

I completely support this change! I was planning to teach the AI to better deal with production chains but this change preempts all of that

Here's a quick summary of the AI issues regarding the ore->tools->muskets chain:

- Not aware that it should reserve enough tools to produce muskets. What often happens is that the tools are used by pioneers, buildings or they simply exported, thus depriving the (local) gunsmiths of their crucial input yield.
- May opt to produce blades rather than tools which prevents the chain from operating in the first place.
- Fails to coordinate production between cities

As for requiring 2 inputs yields, this will pose a challenge as well but removing the intermediate step of having to produce tools that have so many alternative and competing use-cases, is probably a significant step towards a more competetive AI!. Back in 2.7 I taught the AI to properly deal with 2 inputs yields (back then it was only the colored dye yield that required this feature) so I'm reasonably sure that this new method of producing muskets could work of out the box Of course there will lots of room for improvements!

 

[devolution]

This is the Unit I would use as "Master Potter":
(It is not balanced yet, since Yield "Pottery" has not been integrated / created yet.)

Could easily have mistaken him for the local town drunk

 

[raystuttgart]

Could easily have mistaken him for the local town drunk

Hm ... ... a "Town Drunk" ... ... maybe I can come up with a feature for that.