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Bringing the RPG in DG3

Discussion in 'Civ3 - Demo Game III: RPG' started by Octavian X, Apr 10, 2003.

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  1. disorganizer

    disorganizer Deity

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    and an addition to the despot idea:
    PERFECT! lets emulate the dg government!

    1) despotism
    * the despot has all powers. he can give, he can take
    * he stays in power until thrown out by force, gives it away or until the DG goes into another government type
    * the despot defines the first noble family line.
    * he owns all land tiles. but he can give ownership away
    * cities are not owned by anyone except the capitol. they can be occupied by troops though.
    * he has to pay for troops to protect his land
    * he has to tax his people to gain income
    * he has an additional income proportional to the nations income in the DG
    but
    * anybody can buy troops and can fight for land against the despot. conflict rules apply. if a despot is completely defeated he is "thrown out of the office" and a new despot is put into place

    2) revolution
    if the mayority of the rpg-population of a city decides to start a revolution against the government, a randomizer influenced by the number of the governmental rpg-units placed in the city is deciding whether it is successful or not.
    if unsuccessful: the initiator(s) of the revolution (the citizens posting the request for the revolution decission) are "arrested" and the government can decide how to punish them (even with death sentencing!).
    if successful: all units in the city now belong to the revolutionary forces. all tiles in the city radius belong to the revolution. the revolutional leaders can then decide to buy additional troops.
    if in multiple cities a revolution in succussful, the "revolutional cells" can decide to join into one revolution.
    from then on conflict rules apply between the revolutional partie(s) and the governmental troops.
    if the governmental troops are defeated completely, the government is considered overthrown. this may lead to different consequences:
    despotism, communism and monarchy: new government is chosen for the rpg
    republic and democraty: a military government is implemented for the rpg until the next official elections of the dg. the the official government takes over again.


    one addition may anyways be needed for those changes and for many others:
    we may need an official representative to the rpg of the official dg government in government forms democraty and republic... maybe we could try to enforce this into the DG-rules.
     
  2. donsig

    donsig Low level intermediary

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    I think the RPG government should not be tied to the actual government in the Civ 3 game or the demogame. The revolution idea is good but should be entirely internal to the RPG and of course should be dependant on the proper techs being discovered. No monarchy or republic until we actually get those techs. But we may want to be a monarchy even while the Civ 3 country switches to a republic.
    I'm still leaning towards a very strict tech limitation in the RPG. No incomes (other than food and shields until currency). No lawyers until code of laws. No shares until corporation. No knights until chivalry, no kings until monarchy. No forts without construction. Religious restrictions in-line with mysticsm, polytheism and monotheism. Perhaps it would be good to have a sticky thread about tech limitations where we could post suggestions like this. The item manager could use the thread as a basis for making decisions on what to allow and not allow as the individual cases are brought up.
     
  3. Shaitan

    Shaitan der Besucher

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    One clarifier regarding kings: that title was independent of monarchy. The leader of a group of people was called King (or Pharoah, Tzar, etc). Monarchy deals more with how land management is organized than a real change in the title structure of the powerful.
     
  4. donsig

    donsig Low level intermediary

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    Another key distinguishing feature of monarchy that we can key on in the RPG is hereditary monarchy. While despots may or may not try to name their heirs as successors, kings would be succeeded by their heir, though I foresee troubles in deciding who is heir. ;) Dis brings up a good point though about children. Just as dying will be important to the game so will children. I'd suggest lots of leeway with children. They could be NPCs that come to the forefront when characters die (though it should be known before a character dies whether he or she had children). We should also allow one player's character to be the child of another player's character if the two players mutually agree when the characters are formed. Think of the fun we can have when a child inherits the kingdom. Who will be the Protector of the Realm during the minority? Methinks monarchy will be even more fun than despotism!

    As for toppling despots we need to define what makes the despot the despot. Simply killing the despot should not elevate the killer to despot status. A hired assassin who is successful should not be made despot. How about control of the capital? Should that be the defining element in naming the despot? Or should there be more to it, like control of the capital and the elimination of the previous despot?
     
  5. Shaitan

    Shaitan der Besucher

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    The despot is the person that gains control of the country through intrigue, alliances and lack of opposition.
     
  6. disorganizer

    disorganizer Deity

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    to money:
    you are right. but gold and other items were used as currency before money was invented. as such we maybe need to "restructure" our economy during play... like pay with stoneplates and such and maybe gold rings before currency... or as you said just item for items... but where do those items come from? how would you as character get those things?

    to despots:
    the despot should be gone when killed. no question. the heir would follow up. if no heir is defined, then chaos reigns until a true leader arises out of chaos to change the existing reign to order.
    the question is still how a despot is defined. we should definitely find a way to define "clans" and let them have fights. this way the most powerful clan could decide who is the despot. in doubt by fighting against each other.

    idea:
    we should start of with a despot undoubtedly found to rule us... he should be kept pretty weak or propably be a NPC.
    it must be somehow possible to raise armies and build clans beneath the existing government, so that power may arise beneath the NPC first-time despot. if a "clan" feels powerful enough, he can start a revolution. the clan will have to fight against the NPC-army and defeat it. people can decide whether to join the revolution or stay with the government... now the following things can happen:
    1) other "clans" decide to join into the revolution and thus approove the clan who had started the revolution as future leader. the armies of that clan then join the revolution to defeat the government
    2) other clans can decide to support the government. they will then fight for those forces against the revolution
    3) other clans may decide to start their own "counter-revolution" to gain controll themselves

    those options apply for each clan and can be revised at any time during the revolution. so the following scenario would be possible:

    situation:
    government has 5 knights in capitol
    clan 1 has 2 knights in city A
    clan 2 has 2 knight in city B
    clan 3 has 5 knights in city C

    now clan 3 decides to start a revolution. they begin to march towards the capitol. at that time, clans 1+2 also decide to join the revolution.

    next round, clan 1+2 suddenly decide to turn against clan3. clan 2 starts a own revolution, clan 1 goes with the government.
    the government now has controll of 2 knights in city A and 5 in the capitol. they surround the 4 approaching knights of clan3 and defeat them. clan3 joins the revolution of clan2 now... they draft additional knights and now clan1 also joins that revolution... as the government had split up its forces too far, it looses all of them and is deleted. clan2 as the winning clan now decides about the new despot.
     
  7. Padma

    Padma the Absent Admin Administrator Supporter

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    Sure. Anyone could assasinate the Despot, and declare himself Despot, but would he be able to hold it? If all the other Nobles refuse to accept him, then he will have a rebellion to try to put down.

    This could lead to some *very* interesting story lines.
     
  8. disorganizer

    disorganizer Deity

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    addition to the above:
    neutrality:
    it would of course also be possible to stay neutral thus allowing troops to pass in both direction but not into the cities

    clan definition:
    the clans could be defined by city-ownership. a clan could also give out the land around the city to its members for using it. the owner of the city-tile would be the clan-leader and clans could join themselves by deciding who is the leader and then joining their tiles.
     
  9. Shaitan

    Shaitan der Besucher

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    Remember that in a despotism the despot owns the land. He appoints people to manage the land for him and those can turn against him. The use of the land could be given as an incentive by a lordling but if they tried to actually give the land away they would find themselves about a foot shorter.

    Neutrality wouldn't generally be a workable option. If the despot beats back the revolt you can be sure he will remove the nobles that failed to support him. If the revolt wins, how much will they trust a group that betrayed their despot but wouldn't fight?
     
  10. Shaitan

    Shaitan der Besucher

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    Anybody have suggestions for the random events? Please PM them to me. I've only received suggestions from one person so far. :(
     
  11. Civanator

    Civanator Deity

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    that was me!! :D I'll try an think of some more.
     
  12. Octavian X

    Octavian X is not a pipe.

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    Random events?

    Large ones that can affect the entire nation...
    earthquakes
    volcano (smaller than the current one, probably in actual mountains)
    plague
    appearence of comet (thus scaring anceints, or exciting modern peoples)
    administrative mistake, causing starvtion is some areas, abundance in others

    Local events
    drought
    floods
    plague (again)
    fire
    severe storms
    tornado (inland)
    huricane (coast, multiple areas)
    tidal wave
    riots
    savage animal attack
    barbarian raids (border areas)
    disease affecting trees, crops or livestock
    meteor strike

    Temporary random bonuses..
    fertile lands
    discovery of gold or other resource
    happy peasentry
     
  13. Cheetah

    Cheetah Deity

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    If it would be of interest I could try to make a program that holds a database over all the players, NPC, items, money and other things that exists in the RPG, to lessen the burden of the game managers.

    It should be easy to insert, delete and edit the datas, and at the end the program could give out a list over the data so the game manager could post them on the forum.

    It could also calculate if someone dies and other random events the game manager want to know. But I would need a list of what formulas I should use, and what options may be interesting?
     
  14. disorganizer

    disorganizer Deity

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    to the events:
    we could also have buildings or people which affect propability for certain events to happen...

    for example:
    a healer would reduce the plague risk in the city he lives in to 75% of its original value.
    a doctor (available after medicine) would reduce that risk to 50% of its original value
    having a doctor and a hospital in a city will reduce that risk to 25% of its original value.

    same could be with shamanes+temple (ancient age) and priest+cathedral (middle age) for all other natural-events.
    having a cathedral and a bishop in a province would do this for the whole province instead of the city.
    in the industrial age, people start to disbelief in godly strikes and trust a bit more in science, so the effects of religious influence could be halved and be replaced by scientific features...


    or at least something along that line...

    doctors, shamanes, healers and priests would get a minimal payment by the state (like mayors), there can be only 1 per city and they must pass exams at an academy.

    becoming a bishop would need passing another exam+ the approoval of the majority of all priests in the province where you want to be bishop. the payment would be the next higher class than for the priest.
    same principle would go for the scientific line, maybe starting with alchemist in the ancient age (reduce risk of whatever), then promoting to scientist (similar to priest for religious) and then to professor (similar to bishop for religious)

    i hope you get the idea... i didnt know how to explain it better ...
     
  15. disorganizer

    disorganizer Deity

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    ah, one more:
    of course the effects and risks of some catastrophes should vary during the ages.
    for example, the plagues in the beginning had much more disasterous effects eliminating whole cities, but stayed within very small boundaries around the infected city.
    with invention of medicine and hospitals, the severity of the plagues was drastically reduced. some of them were even eliminated.
    therefor with the invention of airplanes, those plagues spread much wider throughout the whole world. there are no more completely eliminated citites, but therefor much more people die of them all around the world...
     
  16. Shaitan

    Shaitan der Besucher

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    As you may have guessed by my absence from this discussion I am once again being pummeled with work and RL committments. It's severely limiting the amount of time I have for the Demogame and RPG. I fear it is the RPG that will be feeling the pinch. We need to eliminate the concept plan of me as a DM/Game Manager. That model will still work but you'll need to find another hand to throw the thunderbolts.
     
  17. Octavian X

    Octavian X is not a pipe.

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    I'll step up to the plate - Throwing thunderbolts is fun. :)
     
  18. disorganizer

    disorganizer Deity

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    and we should implement as much tool-support as possible. the best would be that all things are held and calculated in tools so the only thing the manager needs to do is input them. best would be a kind of webpage where for example transactions are entered... but we tried this 1 game ago and it never was finished :-(
     
  19. Shaitan

    Shaitan der Besucher

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    This is an outline of what we've been discussing, added to the established protocols. Note that this isn't a finalized rule set, it's an outline. Many of the elements need individual fleshing out but this gives a decent look at how they all flow together. I especially like the way the game broadens and colors with changing technology and government forms.

    I propose that we get these hammered out quickly (they're mostly hammered out already this is just all of them in one spot) and elect the needed Managers. The individual managers can then handle organizing the rules for their sections using discussion and the existing DG2 RPG rulesets.

    Fundamental Rules

    1. The stories and enjoyment of the players are the primary goals of the RPG. Rules exist as a framework to promote a cooperative and fun environment.

    2. Thou shalt not resurrect characters, locations, plots, etc from previous RPGs.

    3. Thou shalt not kill another player’s character without express permission from that player or the Game Manager. Same for any major alteration in another player’s character’s fortune, health or plotline.

    4. Each player may have several characters. When posting make it very clear which character is involved.

    5. Storylines often require one person to declare actions/dialog for another player’s characters. Be nice. Anything you declare that another player’s character is doing or saying should be in line for how that player has developed his character. When a storyline involves several characters give the other players a chance to contribute. Don’t jump the story beyond their chance to respond.

    6. Thou shalt stay in the bounds of the demogame. Local technology is limited to what is possible in the demogame. If we are at war with a country in the demogame then we are at war in the RPG as well. We are not at war in the RPG unless we are at war in the demogame. Try to build in and build upon the demogame events in the RPG storylines.

    7. Thou shalt stay in the bounds of reasonable suspension of disbelief. Your character may believe he is a vampire that can fly and mesmerize with his stare but he can’t actually physically do that. His actions must be explainable in a real world sense.

    8. No take backs. Unless the Game Manager determines that an improper or illegal event has been put into a storyline everything that has been written happens.

    9. The Game Manager has overall authority for activities in the RPG. He determines random events and can insert/remove elements to guide and enhance storylines. He determines when characters die from age or unpredicted (non-storyline) violence or accident. When he determines that an event will occur that directly affects a character he notifies that player so the player can work it into his storyline. If the player can’t do so the Game Manager will write the event story himself.

    10. The Item Manager has overall authority for all items in the RPG. His responsibilities include tracking the exceptional items owned by each character and monitoring to prevent abuse or introduction of inappropriate goods.

    Character Rules

    1. When a character is created the player decides if he will be of high, medium or low birth. Each player may only create one character at a time that is of high birth (but could have more than 1 high caste character if their medium/low borne characters rise in position).

    2. Each character has a life expectancy equal to that shown in the current save of the demogame. A character will die of old age at the life expectancy plus/minus 10%.

    3. Character statistics are the innate traits of the character. These are determined by a combination of assignment and random contribution.

    4. Character abilities are the learned skills of the character. These are determined by the player.

    5. The Character Manager has overall authority over all things character related. He can add/remove/modify as he feels appropriate in order to prevent unbalanced or game threatening characters.

    Land Rules

    1. Might makes right. The despot starts out with everything and everybody else grovels at his feet.

    2. As territory grows it gets beyond the ability of one character to control. New nobles are raised to run these territories. They are sworn to allegiance but rebellions have been known to happen. The despot can actually give away land but this generally only happens as a reward to a long time loyal follower. More often the lesser nobles are running the despot’s land in service to him.

    3. It’s possible for there to be more than one despot. If a revolt succeeds and is not put down by the despot that territory is then a separate entity. Note that newly acquired territory in the demogame still goes to the despot who holds the demogame capital.

    4. In a monarchy new land goes to the most logical king. That is the royal character that has adjoining lands, nearby capital, etc.

    5. In republic and democracy new land is offered for general sale to the populace.

    6. In communism all land reverts to control of the government.

    7. Land provides a number of gold, shields and food that it would generate if worked in a city. If no city controlled by the tile owner can access the tile it never makes more than what is shown when right clicking on the tile in the game. Gold can be converted to food or shields with one gold making 1/2 of either. If currency hasn’t been discovered yet all gold produced must be taken as shields or food.

    8. Cities produce the number of gold, shields and food for the tile they reside on plus an additional gold for each population point.

    9. A single contiguous land territory that has at least 5 * P (where “P” is the number of provinces in the demogame) will receive an additional gold per tile in the territory. If the territory has 10 * P receives 2 gold per tile in the territory and one that has 15 * P receives 3 gold per tile in the territory.

    10. The Land Manager has overall authority over land issues and is responsible for keeping track of ownership, territories and the base g/f/s values of the tiles.

    Unit Rules

    1. Each character may raise a certain number of units per chat. This is based on their caste level and modified by their statistics and abilities.

    2. Each character also has a maximum number of units that they can maintain command over. This is based on their territory controlled and modified by their statistics and abilities. (Note that with the proper statistics and abilities a character can raise and maintain troops regardless of their caste level.)

    3. Each unit costs one shield and one food per chat to be maintained in fighting order. A unit without this support becomes a half strength unit. After 2 chats at half strength the unit will disperse.

    4. Each unit costs a number of shields to raise that is equal to 1/10 of the number of shields to build it in the Civ3 game.

    5. Mercenary units must be supported with gold and cost gold equivalent to their unit raising cost each chat. (Example: It costs 3 shields to raise a swordsman. It would cost 3g per chat to maintain a mercenary swordsman.)

    6. Units are stationed in a territory and can be assumed to be located anywhere inside that territory. A unit can move into (through) one territory per chat for each of its Civ3 movement points. If movement is not contested and is along roads a unit can move into (through) 3 territories per chat for each of its Civ3 movement points. A unit must always stop movement when it enters a contested territory.

    7. Units in a contested area will fight using their unit attack/defense values from the Civ3 game modified by character warfare skills, terrain, defenses, etc. Forces may be destroyed, rebuffed, routed, etc.

    8. The Conflict Manager has overall authority over all units and is responsible for tracking the units for each character, their location, movement, upkeep, status and all conflicts resulting from actions in contested territories.

    Economic Rules

    1. The economy of the RPG grows with the technologies known in the demogame. There is no effective economy until the discovery of currency. At that point each character will begin earning a default amount of gold based on their caste level. This is a small amount assumed to be the result of their basic living activities.

    2. Currency also brings about the advent of shops. These are personal or collective establishments and must be appropriate to the skills and abilities of the proprietor/owner. Each PLAYER will be able to start one shop during the course of the game.

    3. Banking technology allows the addition of companies and banks. Companies are large organizations that are owned and run by shareholders. The focus of a company does not have to be based on the skills and abilities of the owners. Banks are lending institutions that may process loans and advances for private and commercial interests.

    4. The Corporation technology allows stocks and corporations. Stocks are portions of a company that can be bought and sold as a commodity. Corporations are multi-company organizations that can act in their own right to purchase/sell stocks, companies, corporations, land, etc according to their charters.

    5. The Economic Manager has overall authority over the economy and is responsible for approving shops, companies and corporations. He also tracks the amount of gold that each character, company and corporation has and bankrupts a those that cannot cover expenditures.

    Nobility Rules

    1. All characters begin play in a specific caste (Imperial, Royal, High Noble, Noble, Upper Gentry, Lower Gentry, Common). It is possible for a character to become a higher (or lower) caste through appointments and storyline effects.

    2. During despotism all peers and titles are under the direction of the despot. The despot may grant and take titles on a whim. Granted titles are almost always bound to an appropriate territory.

    3. During monarchy the noble houses become forces in their own right and sponsored characters may be given title despite the wishes of a king. The king no longer has the power to remove titles but a council of nobles may be able to do so.

    4. During republic any character may achieve a noble title with the expenditure of sufficient resources.

    5. In democracy new titles cannot be gained though hereditary ones may still be passed on.

    6. In communism all titles except the gentry are lost.

    7. The Nobility Manager has overall authority of noble titles and is responsible for tracking the noble houses as well as the individual titles of each character.
     
  20. disorganizer

    disorganizer Deity

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    reads pretty good... just some points:
    age: in ancient age, people would die each TC. how can we fix that?

    territory: it should be defined that a territory as defined in the land rules need not be in explicit ownership of one person, but also can be defined as "cooperative territory" with one actual "operator" of that territory who distributes the income to the participants of the cooperative (see lancre in dg2)


    and an addition:
    * if a storyline effects the area of a rpg-manager, he should be needed to approove the effects (for example if a storyline would raise someone in his caste status, the nobility manager should have to give his approoval before(!) the storyline event is posted)
    * if a random event hits the area of a rpg manager, he has the ability to cancel the event (this will enable the managers to prevent random events from disturbing large storylines) with the approval of the overall-rpg-manager.
    (example: if a random event would degrade some nobles during a large storyline needing their ranks, the nobility manager and the rpg-manager could comply on canceling the event to not disturb the storyline)
     
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