Britain is leaving the EU

[Verbose]

And what still rankles is that the THEN Greek government fibbed and faked its way into the Euro. And that's not even a metaphorical description of events. The only rejoinder to the fact is that everyone else pretty much knew the Greek government was lying through its teeth at the time, but let it slide since no one thought it would actually matter. It then ended up mattering like all hell in the aftermath of the Lehmann Brother's crash, at which point a choice was made — likely the worse one — that had as one of its secondary effects to gut Greece economically. But then at the time, the set of choices involved ones that might have seen in succession the Spanish, Italian, French, German and eventually world economy go down the drain. Which meant Greece unfortunately was not a major concern. Now it probably should get a higher priority, since the acute stuff has mostly passed (for now). But then the Greek debt HAS already been given a major hair-cut. So now it's more of an unseemly wrangle over how much trust anyone is prepared to put in a Greek government, any Greek government? I.e. not a lot given the track record. So then it opens a question how many EU members are actually prepared to keep Greece around as a pure charity-case, with no prospect of anything other than indefinitely paying for its upkeep? And if that is NOT how it's supposed to work, how WILL Greece eventually be able to carry the costs for itself? Which is a Catch-22-situation.

 

[Kyriakos]

^Verbose, whatever, just keep being afraid that Russia will nuke you or what passes for rational. No need to comment on Greece as well, noting highlights such as that the mastermind govs here tricked the Eu using banks the Eu is in business with.

You don't even grasp the obvious fact that we have been having a surplus of >3% for a year, and are still in crisis due to your moneylaundering goons. Keep framing it as "Eu has to pay for Greece, /cry".

 

[Arakhor]

You know, Kyriakos, condemning others for being irrational when you literally wrote that the EU is made up of Germany and its puppets and clients is very much the pot calling the kettle black.

 

[Kyriakos]

^Ok. Which potting and kettling reminds me... this thread is about the UK

 

[Colon]

Make United Kingdom England Great Again

For the record, are there many people who advocated Brexit that have also been arguing against Scottish independence?

 

[AdrienIer]

Didn't Nigel Farage say something during the first scottish referendum about wanting them to stay ?

Edit : I just checked, he did

 

[Arakhor]

Farage is political pond slime. The PM's opinion on Brexit is almost as shifty as her government's official position, but she is very definitely against IndyRef2. I think it's a foolish idea, but this is the SNP.

 

[Lohrenswald]

Didn't Nigel Farage say something during the first scottish referendum about wanting them to stay ?

Edit : I just checked, he did

It's UKIP not EIP lol

 

[AdrienIer]

Considering how Farage only cares about England I don't see why they masquarade as a UK party.

What strikes me as odd is why Sturgeon wants a referendum when the polls are against her. Of course it's the UK so polls are as useful as astrology, but still. Perhaps she should time the referendum so the Scottish people know exactly what kind of Brexit they'd be getting if they stayed. So a referendum around March 2019.

 

[Arakhor]

It's UKIP not EIP lol

Many things in the UK still mean just England (and possibly Wales), especially when coming from those of nativist mindsets in Little England.

What strikes me as odd is why Sturgeon wants a referendum when the polls are against her. Of course it's the UK so polls are as useful as astrology, but still.

Soucoupe de lait pour la première table!

 

[uppi]

What strikes me as odd is why Sturgeon wants a referendum when the polls are against her. Of course it's the UK so polls are as useful as astrology, but still. Perhaps she should time the referendum so the Scottish people know exactly what kind of Brexit they'd be getting if they stayed. So a referendum around March 2019.

I guess she knows that May cannot and will not give her a referendum right now and then she can point to that as an example of English oppression. And maybe get some concessions during the exit negotiations by threatening with the referendum

 

[Traitorfish]

For the record, are there many people who advocated Brexit that have also been arguing against Scottish independence?

The Conservative Party are anti-independence as a matter of official policy - in Scotland their name is "Conservative & Unionist Party", to spare any possible ambiguity- and UKIP are similarly opposed.

What strikes me as odd is why Sturgeon wants a referendum when the polls are against her. Of course it's the UK so polls are as useful as astrology, but still.

The polls were against independence before the last referendum, too. What's significant right now is not that a majority favour union, but how slim that majority is; recent polling places it around 45:55, more or less where it sat at the previous referendum.

Now consider, when the last referendum was announced, support sat at 30%, maybe 35%; it increased 10%-15% over the course of the campaign, against a fairly well-united Unionist coalition, a stable and government, and a fairly stable future in the UK. Unless we assume that everybody who was ever going to be convinced of the merits of independence has already come across, it's far from implausible that the independence camp could make a similar increase against a disunited Unionist coalition, an unstable government, and an economic future in the UK that could be kindly compared to that bit in The Deer Hunter.

Perhaps she should time the referendum so the Scottish people know exactly what kind of Brexit they'd be getting if they stayed. So a referendum around March 2019.

That is the proposal: Sturgeon has suggested a referendum in late 2018 or early 2019, and it's widely acknowledged that it's likely to be at the later end of that time frame.

I guess she knows that May cannot and will not give her a referendum right now and then she can point to that as an example of English oppression. And maybe get some concessions during the exit negotiations by threatening with the referendum

May can't give her a referendum right now because May flatly does not possess that authority: parliament does. May seems intent on carrying herself like some sort of presidential dictator, but she's either bluffing or very deeply confused.

 

[Colon]

The Conservative Party are anti-independence as a matter of official policy - in Scotland their name is "Conservative & Unionist Party", to spare any possible ambiguity- and UKIP are similarly opposed.

What about individual conservatives though? Those speaking out against a new referendum or independence may not necessarily the same ones that advocated Brexit.

[edit] I did find this passionate piece by Johnson arguing against Scottish independence in 2014: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukn...ll-off-the-greatest-political-union-ever.html

 

[Traitorfish]

What about individual conservatives though? Those speaking out against a new referendum or independence may not necessarily the same ones that advocated Brexit.

The only Tories saying much of anything any more are those who advocated Brexit. The Europhile leadership have been scattered to the four winds; they're only intact in Scotland, because Scotland came down for Remain, and Scottish Conservative voters themselves were evenly spit enough as not to unseat the regional leadership.

There's a bit of dissent at the grass-roots, though; 29% of party activists have reportedly taken the right-wing press' Scottophobia at face value, and sensibly concluded that they'd be better off with this oversized refugee camp filled with whisky-sodden, heroin-addled, benefit-scrounging sheep-molesters sucking the national purse dry. And, y'know, support is support...

 

[FriendlyFire]

^Verbose, whatever, just keep being afraid that Russia will nuke you or what passes for rational. No need to comment on Greece as well, noting highlights such as that the mastermind govs here tricked the Eu using banks the Eu is in business with. You don't even grasp the obvious fact that we have been having a surplus of >3% for a year, and are still in crisis due to your moneylaundering goons. Keep framing it as "Eu has to pay for Greece, /cry".

Thats Funny because the IMF has said Greece lied about the surplus last year and that Greece actually shrank -0.25% I guess that is considered a surplus of >3% Greek Maths
Well see if this year if Greeks claim of surplus is the Truth or you are still cooking the books.

Dont worry EU has said that if Greece is capable ot running a balanced budget which it has yet too, its quite willing to provide some carrots.
You deserve the reputation of being a corrupt, incompetent and dishonest government. I wont argue that some of the reforms are bad, but even you must acknowledge that Greek needs reforms

 

[Broken_Erika]

That's what happens when the gravy train derails...

 

[Ryika]

Since we're posting comics:

While this made me smile, the two aren't really that comparable in my opinion.

Agree with them or not, proponents of the Brexit have some pretty solid reasons for why they're taking that stance.
The Scottish Independence is more like the drunken grandpa who's being cared for by your parents, yelling about how he wants to leave the family.

 

[innonimatu]

The ECB and the EU bureaucracy did nothing to the Greek that the Greek government did not agree to - that the choices to be made by the Greek government were not good either way does not mean there was no sovereign decision (the same as it was sovereign decisions leading to the crisis) and the Greek situation is not indicative of removal of sovereignty - unless you count not having control over the printing press there - but that was a sovereign decision by the then Greek government when joining the Euro establishing a multinational central bank and the current government when not leaving. That you do not like the equally sovereign decisions by the majority of other EU member states with regards to Greece does not make it a EU as much as a European story.

ori, the ECB has, by its own charter, the international treaty that set it up, two main obligations: "control inflation" (code for "crush wages bt causing crisis whenever workers may be in a position to demand raises", but this would be another discussion), and provide liquidity to the banks of the member states. This provision of liquidity is unconditional in the treaty so long as the banks are not bankrupt. The greek banks were not bankrupt. The state might fail a payment on bonds but that did not automatically made the banks bankrupt, there were many ways things could go and greek banks were not even the main holders of greek public debt. Certainly no one can argue that they were bankrupt then, because they are still around now.

The withdrawal of liquidity ordered by the ECB was illegal per the EU's own body of legislation. As were several other actions at the time, already mentioned here. But the greeks had indeed already surrendered the essential thing about sovereignty (control, over their currency in this case) in exchange for those legislative promises that were later broken.

Were ii me making the decisions, I would have ordered the ECB branch in Athens to provide liquidity to the banks, and replaced all staff that did not full cooperate with the national government. The ECB and the EC would then either have to escalate and expose the fact that their own action which precipitated the events was illegal, or fold and let the greeks withhold payment and call bondholders to a revision of the debt. Instead,Tsipras folded and the rest is history still in the make.

My point here is: the EU institutions did act outlaw, and in matters of finance I know many examples of such malfeasance (the directorate of competition in particular is infamous). The only way to deal with this kind of abuse of power is to refuse to play their game, point blank. The UK left and brexit will be "hard" because no softness is possible with the people at Brussels and Frankfurt. It is war or submission to their self-serving, ever-changing "rules", no room for real negotiation with that lot. War be it, sooner rather than later.

 

[innonimatu]

What strikes me as odd is why Sturgeon wants a referendum when the polls are against her.

Individual political survival - that maker and unmaker of nations. Her sole political asset is the issue of scotish independence, so she must keep whipping it. Even if the horse is already half dead... my guess is that she'll be the one unmade by it.

May can't give her a referendum right now because May flatly does not possess that authority: parliament does. May seems intent on carrying herself like some sort of presidential dictator, but she's either bluffing or very deeply confused.

It may be that I'm biased by wishing the UK to bloody the EU's nose (destroy it, actually). But I tell you that now that I've had the time to follow May for a while, she strikes me as an extremely capable politician. One I wouldn't wish the task of having to oppose.

 

[FriendlyFire]

ori, the ECB has, by its own charter, the international treaty that set it up, two main obligations: "control inflation" (code for "crush wages bt causing crisis whenever workers may be in a position to demand raises", but this would be another discussion), and provide liquidity to the banks of the member states. This provision of liquidity is unconditional in the treaty so long as the banks are not bankrupt. The greek banks were not bankrupt. The state might fail a payment on bonds but that did not automatically made the banks bankrupt, there were many ways things could go and greek banks were not even the main holders of greek public debt. Certainly no one can argue that they were bankrupt then, because they are still around now.

The withdrawal of liquidity ordered by the ECB was illegal per the EU's own body of legislation. As were several other actions at the time, already mentioned here. But the greeks had indeed already surrendered the essential thing about sovereignty (control, over their currency in this case) in exchange for those legislative promises that were later broken.

Were ii me making the decisions, I would have ordered the ECB branch in Athens to provide liquidity to the banks, and replaced all staff that did not full cooperate with the national government. The ECB and the EC would then either have to escalate and expose the fact that their own action which precipitated the events was illegal, or fold and let the greeks withhold payment and call bondholders to a revision of the debt. Instead,Tsipras folded and the rest is history still in the make.

My point here is: the EU institutions did act outlaw, and in matters of finance I know many examples of such malfeasance (the directorate of competition in particular is infamous). The only way to deal with this kind of abuse of power is to refuse to play their game, point blank. The UK left and brexit will be "hard" because no softness is possible with the people at Brussels and Frankfurt. It is war or submission to their self-serving, ever-changing "rules", no room for real negotiation with that lot. War be it, sooner rather than later.

Cooking you books and bank Fraud are illegal per the EU's own body of legislation
Forgiving Debt is illegal per the EU's consitution
Violating Bailout terms is illegal per the EU's agreement
Having higher GDP debt is illegal per the EU's own body of legislation

The so call Iceland option should have been enacted for Greece given the course of events, including gaoling those politicians involved
As for allowing greece to provided liquidity, EU Bent it OWN LAW to by reducding the "collateral" that the Greeks banks hold in order for them to not be declared bankrupt thus qualifying them for liquidity.