Britain's war against Michael Savage & Free Speech

[kochman]

Um, no? It appears you don't understand the point. How do you like Nietzsche's assessment of Christianity as a religion of slave morality designed to turn people into an obedient, guilt-ridden flock of sheep? Somehow when it comes to Christianity, people who hate it must misunderstand something, but the same is categorically not the case with Islam?

Please tell me how I am misinterpreting "Seek out the infidel and slay him".

I agree that Christianity, in the hands of humans, has certainly been used to manipulate... that doesn't change the basic message... "turn the other cheek, love thy enemy".

 

[.Shane.]

...Free Speech is a right, in fact, it's the 1st one in the Bill of Rights..

One that has all kinds of limitations on it.

The US has barred people from entry and does so all the time.

The UK, for better or worse, has its own standard. It would seem that they banned someone you like (I don't see you creating a thread for the other people they've banned) and you've vented about it by making ridiculous conclusions about a "war" on a person or free speech. You're inventing a problem that doesn't really exist.

As has been stated the UK has pretty reasonable free speech history/protection. Not the same as the US (or Sweden or Denmark or wherever), but its there. You just may not like who they applied it to.... a demagogue who is extremely antagonistic (to put it mildly). Maybe there's a lesson in this for Savage and others that words count. You can't spout all that borderline hate-speech (not so borderline in the UK eyes, I guess) and not suffer consequences.

 

[kochman]

The US bans a hell of a lot more people from entering than the UK. Where they so scared Cat Stevens would go beyond Wild World into his more "kitty"-whipped stuff that they refused him entry?

Japan just deported Russell Brand for all the things he has said in the past.

So the US is all about free speech but refuses entry to lots of people on the grounds of things they have said, but thats ok. Japan deports people when they become aware of the things they have said in the past, but thats ok. But heaven forfend that some hateful redneck should be refused entry, because he's American, so thats against freedom and the constitution.

I'll grant hateful, but he's not a redneck for crying out loud!

 

[aelf]

Please tell me how I am misinterpreting "Seek out the infidel and slay him".

I agree that Christianity, in the hands of humans, has certainly been used to manipulate... that doesn't change the basic message... "turn the other cheek, love thy enemy".

Um, you should know better than to reduce the Quran to "Seek out the infidel and slay him" and the Bible to "turn the other cheek, love thy enemy". I mean, maybe you're somehow completely incapable of not doing the former, but you should at least be honest enough to admit that the Bible isn't just about loving thine enemy and singing kumbaya. There's plenty of references to swords, righteous fury and mass slayings.

Most religious fanatics probably won't admit it, seeing as to how they might claim that God has personally told them the truth, but sacred texts don't come in a neat readily-digestible package. Any reading requires interpretation, and isolating the central message of a sacred text clearly necessitates interpretation and a particular perspective in doing so. You might somehow interpret "kill infidels" as the central message of the Quran, but obviously millions of people do not. So is the Quran really just a hateful text or not? Why is your interpretation necessarily correct and another one wrong?

 

[Dreadnought]

Free speech isn't a right: it's a privilege. And it's about time some people started acting like they value it properly.

I hope you're not serious.

 

[IglooDame]

One that has all kinds of limitations on it.

The US has barred people from entry and does so all the time.

The UK, for better or worse, has its own standard. It would seem that they banned someone you like (I don't see you creating a thread for the other people they've banned) and you've vented about it by making ridiculous conclusions about a "war" on a person or free speech. You're inventing a problem that doesn't really exist.

As has been stated the UK has pretty reasonable free speech history/protection. Not the same as the US (or Sweden or Denmark or wherever), but its there. You just may not like who they applied it to.... a demagogue who is extremely antagonistic (to put it mildly). Maybe there's a lesson in this for Savage and others that words count. You can't spout all that borderline hate-speech (not so borderline in the UK eyes, I guess) and not suffer consequences.

Agreed. (and VRWC's original thoughts spot-on, too). I'm rather unhappy with the US keeping out Cat Stevens, but it is a nation's sovereign privilege to allow in who they want and bar who they want, at best subject only to diplomatic protocols regarding foreign government representatives/leaders. Michael Savage is not a citizen of the UK, so his right of free speech is immaterial to the circumstance.

 

[kochman]

Um, you should know better than to reduce the Quran to "Seek out the infidel and slay him" and the Bible to "turn the other cheek, love thy enemy". I mean, maybe you're somehow completely incapable of not doing the former, but you should at least be honest enough to admit that the Bible isn't just about loving thine enemy and singing kumbaya. There's plenty of references to swords, righteous fury and mass slayings.

Yes, in the OT. Christianity is about Christ's teaching though. He opposes all those events.

So is the Quran really just a hateful text or not? Why is your interpretation necessarily correct and another one wrong?

I could easily be wrong, I just express my opinion, if that is authorized.

I think the core message of the Koran, if not a muslim, is a hateful one. I stand by that assessment, and always will. If you are a muslim, then you are treated pretty well by fellow muslims (unless you are a woman and therefore a 2nd class citizen of course, per the Koran).

 

[SuperJay]

But heaven forfend that some hateful redneck should be refused entry, because he's American, so thats against freedom and the constitution.

And a WAR on FREEDOM.

 

[ParadigmShifter]

Anyone read Arthur Miller's The Crucible? USA #1

 

[GinandTonic]

Agreed. (and VRWC's original thoughts spot-on, too). I'm rather unhappy with the US keeping out Cat Stevens, but it is a nation's sovereign privilege to allow in who they want and bar who they want, at best subject only to diplomatic protocols regarding foreign government representatives/leaders. Michael Savage is not a citizen of the UK, so his right of free speech is immaterial to the circumstance.

FWIW the US was clearly not starting a war against free speech when they refused entry the Cat Stevens and no-one in the UK thought so. It just seemed incongruous to refuse entry to such a clearly peaceful and well intentioned a person.

 

[Mr. Dictator]

I really don't see what the issue is. He is not a UK citizen and has no actual right to go there. If the UK government doesn't want him in, tough cookies for Savage. I certainly hold no ill will towards the UK for denying him this.

This.

If someone came over to my home and said things I didn't want to have to deal with, I would have every moral and legal right to tell him to screw off.

 

[IglooDame]

FWIW the US was clearly not starting a war against free speech when they refused entry the Cat Stevens and no-one in the UK thought so. It just seemed incongruous to refuse entry to such a clearly peaceful and well intentioned a person.

And so we're in agreement.

Edit: I think it was our own Dumb Pothead that posted "How can the guy who wrote songs like Morning has broken,Moonshadow and Peace Train possibly be the same guy who gives money to terrorist orginizations?"

 

[.Shane.]

I think the core message of the Koran, if not a muslim, is a hateful one. I stand by that assessment, and always will. If you are a muslim, then you are treated pretty well by fellow muslims (unless you are a woman and therefore a 2nd class citizen of course, per the Koran).

Let me redo this to make a point:

I think the core message of the Bible, if not a Christian, is a hateful one. I stand by that assessment, and always will. If you are a Christian, then you are treated pretty well by fellow Christians (unless you are a woman and therefore a 2nd class citizen of course, per the Bible)

If we were having this discussion in, say 1800 this would be a fair statement. (may still be true in some parts of the world as well)

So, its not the Bible or the Koran, its the adherents and how they interpret it.

 

[Junius]

FWIW the US was clearly not starting a war against free speech when they refused entry the Cat Stevens and no-one in the UK thought so. It just seemed incongruous to refuse entry to such a clearly peaceful and well intentioned a person.

I don't want to derail the thread or anything, but Cat Stevens definetly was seen to support the fatwa against Salman Rushdie. That's where most of the animosity comes from. He later tried to distance himself from it if you believe him. FWIW Salman Rushdie doesn't. Not defending the reason to keep him out because i think forbidding an entertainer to enter the country is not a great idea, i just want to point out he isn't just some peaceful songwriter.

 

[NovaKart]

I don't think anyone is arguing that the UK doesn't have the right to do this, obviously they do. What people are asking is if it's the right decision or does it unfairly block people with political views the UK doesn't like.

Some people seem to be implying that this is a double standard, but I don't see the US government pressuring the UK to let him in.

About the rap and R&B stars denied entry to the UK, they probably deny anyone entry who has a felony conviction.

 

[duckstab]

Yes, in the OT. Christianity is about Christ's teaching though. He opposes all those events.

"Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword." -- Matthew 10:34

Of course Christians have argued against this passage being taken as a literal injunction by Jesus to take up arms. I have no problem with that, but why should Muslims not be accorded the same latitude to interpret their own scripture?

 

[GinandTonic]

I don't want to derail the thread or anything, but Cat Stevens definetly was seen to support the fatwa against Salman Rushdie. That's where most of the animosity comes from. He later tried to distance himself from it if you believe him. FWIW Salman Rushdie doesn't. Not defending the reason to keep him out because i think forbidding an entertainer to enter the country is not a great idea, i just want to point out he isn't just some peaceful songwriter.

Yeah there was a whole thread on the issue. For my money "father and son" or whatever it was called justified extradition to The Hague, sod a visa refusal.

About the rap and R&B stars denied entry to the UK, they probably deny anyone entry who has a felony conviction.

IIRC Snoop was booted out for a scuffle after he tried to sneak half a dozen minions into the first class lounge at Heathrow. His security people tried to stop airport security from ejecting people, and they were all put on the next flight out.

Putting a hand on airport security is very, very foolish.

 

[Behind The Mask]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but don't the words of Christ also apply to Muslims to a degree as well?

Cause if I recall, Jesus is a prophet to Islam as well.

Thus, with that in mind; does that make any of these claims that Islam is a hateful and destructive religion somewhat hypocritical as they also follow the word of Christ, albeit to a smaller degree?

 

[amadeus]

Japan just deported Russell Brand for all the things he has said in the past.

No, for his criminal record. I for one am glad Japanese immigration doesn't give people a pass just because they're rich and famous.

 

[GinandTonic]

No, for his criminal record. I for one am glad Japanese immigration doesn't give people a pass just because they're rich and famous.

So why did they let him in? Did he tell porkie-pies about his record?