British Multiculturalism

[Quackers]

Well, what evidence? Certainly we can think of examples of states fracturing along ethnic lines, but we can also think of examples of fracturing within or across diverse ethnicities. There's no self-evident patterns.

I'm also sceptical that Dachs, a vocal proponent of civic nationalism, is going to come out swinging for your side.

Sometimes the evidence is staring you in the face but you're looking too hard you can't see it. I think this is your particular malady at this time.
Dachs may be a "vocal proponent of civic nationalism" but he is smart enough to agree, at least in part, with my position.

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

Sometimes there is no evidence, but when you start looking for it too hard, it's all so obvious.

With all due respect Quackers, you have no flipping idea what it's like to be Number Two. Sure, only most of your decisions affect every facet of every other ... thing, but you get a lot more abuse at school making fun of your status.

 

[Traitorfish]

Sometimes the evidence is staring you in the face but you're looking too hard you can't see it. I think this is your particular malady at this time.

Well, humour me. Work through a few examples, bit of basic comparative analysis for the denser reader.

Dachs may be a "vocal proponent of civic nationalism" but he is smart enough to agree, at least in part, with my position.

I suppose we'll see.

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

Dense reader, signing in.

 

[metatron]

Muslims will constitute a sizeable chunk of the British population in 100 years time.

tl;dr

Ignoring the broad and likely unjustified category "muslims" i'd like to suggest that the "muslims" the UK in 100 years will not be like the ones today.
You are, as i understand you, a value conservative.
If you have any faith in the national values of your nation you have to expect that 100 years will be more than enough time for them to rub off on people.

 

[Leonel]

Hey, you came to us! We didn't want to be your colonies but you insisted and now here we are. It's not our fault you don't like the consequences.

 

[Tahuti]

Well, I think it has its uses in describing policies that were explicitly framed in terms of "multiculturalism". I just don't get the impression that it's what Quackers wants to say with the term.

Well, very few - if any policies - are labelled as 'multicultural'. Considering it has become a political etiphet, comparable to casual use of 'nazi', I doubt few policies will be labelled as such in the future.

You point out that the constituant countries of the UK and enhances what i'm saying. A common language, a common culture and centuries of history together; yet there still is a huge chunk of Scottish people who want to go for it alone. It just further proves my point that multi-ethnic countries are unstable. Hell, we already had a divorce from the ROI in the 1920s.

Now, instead of these people being culturally identical to the rest of the UK. You introduce millions from abroad who speak a different language, worship a different god and worst of all have a different moral code. Universally established moral norms underpin a confidant political society, when you disagree on the fundamentals people tend to radicalise and conflict arises. Certainly, Islam is at odds with the christian-inspired morality of the UK.

Of course there are "intergrated" minorities. I'm in full favour of them. Yet our system isn't set up to intergrate people, it's set-up for them to bring their Somali cultural practices over here and for us to "celebrate" the "diversity". Our system is designed to bend for them. This is colonialism.

All gay and well, though you haven't address my point that problems commonly attributed to multiculturalism may in fact be caused due to other reasons, such as poor urban planning for the reasons I have given. In fact, I sincerely doubt that immigrants are prevented from integrating (note that assimilating is not the same integrating and both may be separate entirely) in the name of cultural diversity and this well may constitute a strawmen fallacy. I'm not a fan of left-wing politics, though I do not imagine those who espouse them to be as stupid as you seem to make them up to be.

To add to point about the ethnics of Britain, Welsh and Scots are not assimilated, since they are not English. They are however integrated.

 

[Traitorfish]

Well, very few - if any policies - are labelled as 'multicultural'. Considering it has become a political etiphet, comparable to casual use of 'nazi', I doubt few policies will be labelled as such in the future.

It was quite popular by its proponents in the 1980s-90s. It's only really in the 2000s that it became a pejorative, and it only made sense as such because it was part of the established political vocabulary.

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

Multi-culture is a relative new thing. Of course there will be eff ups and downsides. Dependant on where your focus is you'll either see downsides, upsides or both.

As is with democracy, we have this flawed system because of lack of practical alternatives. I'd like the OP to make a case for a practical alternative to multiculturalism. I admit I have not read his posts in depth because I did kind of zone out. I apologize if such an alternative has already been put to the table.

edit: Read the posts more closely now. Request for an alternative remains.

 

[Quackers]

tl;dr


If you have any faith in the national values of your nation you have to expect that 100 years will be more than enough time for them to rub off on people.

Values don't work like that.
The one who pushes their values the hardest will win out. In our age of moral relativism we are too wimpy to assert anything. A confidant hard civilisation like the people who come from Islamic nations will dominate in such an environment.

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

The one who pushes their values the hardest will win out.

So explain why mosque attendance in the Netherlands has been going down while muslim population is going up. (not as much as some would like you to believe though).

Or are the confidant hard people from Islamic nation sneaky as well to lull us into a false sense of security?

In our age of moral relativism we are too wimpy to assert anything.

That's why we need people like you who take action by muttering about it on a message board

 

[Traitorfish]

Values don't work like that.
The one who pushes their values the hardest will win out. In our age of moral relativism we are too wimpy to assert anything. A confidant hard civilisation like the people who come from Islamic nations will dominate in such an environment.

do you even realise how much you sound like hitler

 

[Tahuti]

do you even realise how much you sound like hitler hilter

He's right, you know that?

 

[JollyRoger]

If they are going to dominate anyway, teach them about the cane and the tawse so you all can at least pass on the English Vice to your betters.

 

[Traitorfish]

Wait, hold on, does this mean that Quacker's is now pro-Scottish independence? If he's giving up on multi-ethnic states as a Doable Thing, it seems to be implied that he'd prefer England to go it alone...?

 

[Oruc]

Spoiler :

So we have pursued this policy over the last 20 years or so. We've had roughly 3m new arrivals since 1997.

My question is: where is the benefits?

Many things I see are in fact negatives. For instance, successfull countries with multiethnic peoples are rare. You don't need to be a historian to work that out. Just look at what happened in Eastern Europe 1989 onwards. Countries dissolved, wars occured, ethnic cleansing was in full swing. What great benefit did these countries like Yugoslavia enjoy which we are now getting? Could that be the future in a centuries time? Remember, Plotinus worked out at fertility rates of a few years ago: Muslims will constitute a sizeable chunk of the British population in 100 years time.

Many people will think that is great. I think it will be catastrophic.

Now we get crazy stuff where oversubscribed English schools are forced to hire interpretors to teach the foreign children and where remedial English language classes are being introduced in a Leeds school. In the Midlands we had a terrible story last year. A group which abused children was hiding in plain sight but because of their race were allowed to get away with the crimes for years because social workers/police/council were terrified of dealing with it. Oh and according to the Guardian, a champion of multiculturalism and mass immigration, 1/5 of Muslims would support a proposal of Sharia law! Great! Still, we already have sharia courts in the UK when it comes down to divorce/inheritance but there has already been abused. No fear, we can just roll back these silly sharia courts right? Nope: now Sharia is getting enshrined in British law. 10 years ago you would be laughed at to suggest implementing Sharia law, now we already have. What will happen in the next 10?

So can anybody justify and defend this policy? In my mind it has been a complete failure. David Cameron and Angela Merkel both agree. If you could wind back the clocks how would you have arranged immigration differently?

Do you still consider yourself a conservative Quackers? Do you believe there is something wrong in society.
Conservative parties and positions offer no real opposition to multiculturalism, just the speed. They share the same stem as the Liberal, social democrats and all 3 backed by big business and capitalism.

Where are the benefits?

typically they list the benefits as ethnic food, women and music

 

[useless]

So what would Quacker's Britain hold for the Welsh? Or the Scots? Or the Irish? Would he support getting rid of the multiculturalism that tolerates and accepts them?

Or would he increase the hegemony of the english? Given his dislike and disdain towards multi-culturalism one would presume so.

 

[Masada]

So what would Quacker's Britain hold for the Welsh? Or the Scots? Or the Irish? Would he support getting rid of the multiculturalism that tolerates and accepts them?

Of course. Quackers is always wary of the potential for Catholics to hand the country over to the Pope.

Dachs may be a "vocal proponent of civic nationalism" but he is smart enough to agree, at least in part, with my position.

I'm reasonably sure he thinks that ethno-nationalists can pose a threat to pluralist states and that they ought to be crushed when they do.

Or are the confidant hard people from Islamic nation sneaky as well to lull us into a false sense of security?

It's dat Muslim hivemind at work, mang.

 

[useless]

Quackers literally hates the foundation on which the British Nation was formed, an old form of multiculturalism.

Why do you dislike Britain Quackers? Legit question, based upon your dislike of all multiculturalism.

 

[Quackers]

do you even realise how much you sound like hitler

Well, he may have been the most evil man in history but he understood a thing or two about how value systems compete.

Wait, hold on, does this mean that Quacker's is now pro-Scottish independence? If he's giving up on multi-ethnic states as a Doable Thing, it seems to be implied that he'd prefer England to go it alone...?

No. I have been careful to never state that multiethnic countries are all conflict ridden or on the verge of Balkanisation. I just said they're more prone to it than nation-states.

Do you still consider yourself a conservative Quackers? Do you believe there is something wrong in society.
Conservative parties and positions offer no real opposition to multiculturalism, just the speed. They share the same stem as the Liberal, social democrats and all 3 backed by big business and capitalism.


typically they list the benefits as ethnic food, women and music

I would generally describe myself as a small-c conservative. I don't want anything to do with the Conservative Party. I believe all three parties are very similiar, there isn't much choice.

The thing i dislike about MPs is the similarity in backgrounds.
Every other MP I read about has the same career path. Attended a Private schoolor a grammar school. Went to Cambridge and did Politics, Philosophy and Economics. They than begin a career in a "think tank" which is affliated to one of the major parties, after a few years they become advisors to a minister. They than fight for a seat in an enemy stronghold and lose it. By the next election they are given a safe seat to win and bam, they're an MP!

We need people who haven't been doing politics there whole lives. They need to have a bit more "real world" experience IMO.

Quackers literally hates the foundation on which the British Nation was formed, an old form of multiculturalism.

Why do you hate Britain Quackers?