C2C Balance Thread

[ls612]

Got Arqebuistier (sp?) and Nationalism (canon forge) around 290BC. I have updated to Rev 2541 as well.

JosEPh

Eternity, GEM. 1545 BC, about half way through classical. Probably a bit ahead of schedule, but I'm the runaway leader in this game despite playing on immortal start with increasing difficulty (Persia was a crazy easy starting position). Also I started this about a wek before V23 when the AI wasn't hunting well, so a opure V23 would likely be slightly slower.

This reinforces my general impression, which is that the changes I have made to the Eras and Gamespeeds have been a step in the right direction, but that they haven't gone far enough. My overall plan is to do three things.

1. Move the Start Date to 50,000 BC. This will not affect the number of turns allotted for Prehistoric, just their lengths.

2. Redo the number of turns for Ancient and beyond, based off of the number of techs per era. Currently for instance Medieval, which has 36 techs, has the same number of turns supposedly dedicated to it as Industrial, which has 60-some techs. This is not good, look for it to change soonish.

3. Tweak the BBAI techcost modifiers so that things will move more smoothly on the new timeline.

This is going to be a lot of work, not so much the coding, that is simple. The main time-consumer is all of the math I need to do to get this all optimal. Expect some major changes by next weekend.

 

[BlueGenie]

*ponders*
If Medieval is sped up too much, regardless of amount of techs, things there will just go obsolete that much faster. Is it possible to keep the #of turns and split technologies up instead, like in Prehistoric, so there's more smaller steps rather than those bigger ones?
Castle improvements for instance don't all need to come right away at the same technology, and there's probably more to pick apart if looking for things.

Cheers

 

[ls612]

*ponders*
If Medieval is sped up too much, regardless of amount of techs, things there will just go obsolete that much faster. Is it possible to keep the #of turns and split technologies up instead, like in Prehistoric, so there's more smaller steps rather than those bigger ones?
Castle improvements for instance don't all need to come right away at the same technology, and there's probably more to pick apart if looking for things.

Cheers

Medieval is still going to be 600 turns on Snail, or 240 on Epic. I don't anticipate too many problems in that department.

 

[BlueGenie]

Feedback for ls612 again: Learning the new prehistoric tech-map makes a big difference in how long it takes to get to Ancient Era. On Eternal Gigantic (so longer times for research still than the last try) I shaved it down to reaching Ancient at 4385BC, 922 turns in.
This was with fewer animals for my Myths and a lot worse starting location than the previous attempt. Though it could have something to do with being Scientific too, though I think that merely compensated for the larger map size. Still.

Cheers

 

[ls612]

Feedback for ls612 again: Learning the new prehistoric tech-map makes a big difference in how long it takes to get to Ancient Era. On Eternal Gigantic (so longer times for research still than the last try) I shaved it down to reaching Ancient at 4385BC, 922 turns in.
This was with fewer animals for my Myths and a lot worse starting location than the previous attempt. Though it could have something to do with being Scientific too, though I think that merely compensated for the larger map size. Still.

Cheers

The Scientific is most likely what did it, Scientific leaders are supposed to be a bit ahead of the tech curve.

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

1. Move the Start Date to 50,000 BC. This will not affect the number of turns allotted for Prehistoric, just their lengths.

All land animal spawns are set to start in year 50,000 BC by default all sea ones start in 5,000 BC. There are some animals that "go extinct" arround 4,000 BC. Not sure if this will need changes but thought I would mention it.

 

[ls612]

All land animal spawns are set to start in year 50,000 BC by default all sea ones start in 5,000 BC. There are some animals that "go extinct" arround 4,000 BC. Not sure if this will need changes but thought I would mention it.

Yes, the Sea animals, and also Neanders, will need changing. I was unaware of the Sea animals needing changes, so thanks for the headsup.

 

[Koshling]

Yes, the Sea animals, and also Neanders, will need changing. I was unaware of the Sea animals needing changes, so thanks for the headsup.

Note that there are 3 separate spawns for the Neaders, intended to provide a peakign spawn rate part way through prehistoric that then tails off before they finally stop spawning.

 

[ls612]

Note that there are 3 separate spawns for the Neaders, intended to provide a peakign spawn rate part way through prehistoric that then tails off before they finally stop spawning.

Thanks. I'm thinking I'll make them (neanders) peak at about 30KBC, and taper off after that, ending entirely in 10000 BC. I know that isn't entirely accurate, but it makes sense from a gameplay standpoint.

 

[BlueGenie]

Feedback for ls612 again: Learning the new prehistoric tech-map makes a big difference in how long it takes to get to Ancient Era. On Eternal Gigantic (so longer times for research still than the last try) I shaved it down to reaching Ancient at 4385BC, 922 turns in.
This was with fewer animals for my Myths and a lot worse starting location than the previous attempt. Though it could have something to do with being Scientific too, though I think that merely compensated for the larger map size. Still.

Cheers

Update for ls612:
Same game, just got to Classical Era on turn 1203, 2985BC. Granted I pushed for Asatru but I also on the same turn have Writing and Bronze Working so I'm almost pure Classical Era anyway, despite not having around half of the Ancient Era technologies yet.

Cheers

 

[T C]

I started a new game recently and have a few comments to make.

1) I love the new prehistoric units, the stone maceman in particular adds a new dimension.

2) The changes to tech progression and unit building for the AI are very positive. The AI now builds lots of atl-atls and stone axemen and macemen and fewer healers and trained dogs.

3) The AI expands very well, but still cannot defend its cities. I have a 'death squad' of 7 units + GG which regularly takes out AI cities along the frontier. Yet the other civs are advanced than me and have larger armies.

4) I reached the ancient era in 4200BC, but the AI reached it much sooner, I think 6000BC or even a little before. I was researching some techs in 4-6 turns on snail, which is too fast IMHO. I think I know what is casuing this, the new stone tools workshop gives +5 science which is massive in prehistoric terms. Especially when you consider that on deiety the AI has two cities and so will have two of these buildings. I like the fact that the new stone working techs have some bounses and buildings attached to them but I think that prehistoric tech costs need to be increased, by maybe 10-20% to balance the new buildings.

5) I know this has been mentioned before but there is still too much health, too much happiness and too much gold. These aspects of the game simply don't exist in prehistoric.

 

[JosEPh_II]

5) I know this has been mentioned before but there is still too much health, too much happiness and too much gold. These aspects of the game simply don't exist in prehistoric.

disagree, disagree, and disagree. And why not?

JosEPh

 

[BlueGenie]

3) The AI expands very well, but still cannot defend its cities. I have a 'death squad' of 7 units + GG which regularly takes out AI cities along the frontier. Yet the other civs are advanced than me and have larger armies.

4) I reached the ancient era in 4200BC, but the AI reached it much sooner, I think 6000BC or even a little before. I was researching some techs in 4-6 turns on snail, which is too fast IMHO. I think I know what is casuing this, the new stone tools workshop gives +5 science which is massive in prehistoric terms. Especially when you consider that on deiety the AI has two cities and so will have two of these buildings. I like the fact that the new stone working techs have some bounses and buildings attached to them but I think that prehistoric tech costs need to be increased, by maybe 10-20% to balance the new buildings.

5) I know this has been mentioned before but there is still too much health, too much happiness and too much gold. These aspects of the game simply don't exist in prehistoric.

3. Great Generals are death to AI, heck to any player that doesn't have one of their own in the right position. I suggest playing with it off if you think the AI can't defend against it.

4. ls612 is working on the time-line of things, something that constantly needs tweaking as new things emerge in the game. I don't agree that the techs should be made more expensive though, better would be to decrease the amount of turns it takes to get to ~4000BC.

5. *grin* I agree with you Joseph.
People got sick, were mad, and had wealth even if in other forms than money. In fact one could argue that this "wealth" was required for a tribe to gain status with other tribes and assert their influence over other bands of humans. Influence we know leads to civilizations down the line.
We do know that trading among humans for materials, among other things obsidian, wasn't uncommon 150'000 years ago in Africa, which would indicate that people back then had a value on things and used a barter type wealth system.
Instead of changing the currency every time a new one was invented it's easier and better to use a gold value on everything, always, as a symbolism of wealth in any kind of form.

Cheers

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

5) I know this has been mentioned before but there is still too much health, too much happiness and too much gold. These aspects of the game simply don't exist in prehistoric.

Maybe it is the way we play but I have to agree with JosEPh_II and BlueGenie here. I am struggling just enough with all three up until the classic period when I start to get run away gold.

 

[T C]

3. Great Generals are death to AI, heck to any player that doesn't have one of their own in the right position. I suggest playing with it off if you think the AI can't defend against it.

Let me elaborate on what I think the problem is. The AI builds a lot of units (and now, thanks to some great work from the team, they build the right kind of units) but they don't use them effectively. They defend larger, more established cities well but when a new city is established there are often just 2-3 defensive units and so it's easy to take. This window of opportunity is quite large. This would be fine if it were some city far away from potential, but when it's on a hotly contested frontier, it's far too easy for the human player to raise the city.

The AI also doesn't make good use of scouting along frontiers to see enemies approaching. The AI is also quite bad at attacking cities.

I have talked to Koshling about this kind of problem before and I know that it's on his list.

4. ls612 is working on the time-line of things, something that constantly needs tweaking as new things emerge in the game. I don't agree that the techs should be made more expensive though, better would be to decrease the amount of turns it takes to get to ~4000BC.

I have to disagree here. It's nice to have all the new stuff in prehistoric, but I would like to have some more time to enjoy it. With the latest changes, the techs just fly by, even on snail. I suppose I could play on eternity but I like the snail speed in the early prehistoric and ancient eras, the game passes at a good speed, but in the middle/later prehistoric, the progression is too fast.

5. *grin* I agree with you Joseph.
People got sick, were mad, and had wealth even if in other forms than money. In fact one could argue that this "wealth" was required for a tribe to gain status with other tribes and assert their influence over other bands of humans. Influence we know leads to civilizations down the line.
We do know that trading among humans for materials, among other things obsidian, wasn't uncommon 150'000 years ago in Africa, which would indicate that people back then had a value on things and used a barter type wealth system.
Instead of changing the currency every time a new one was invented it's easier and better to use a gold value on everything, always, as a symbolism of wealth in any kind of form.

Cheers

I think you have misunderstood my point, perhaps my post wasn't clear. What I am saying is that these three aspects of the game should be important in prehistoric, but are not for me, because very soon after the start every city has +10 happiness +10 health. My science slider is always at 100% because so many buildings produce gold. In other words I don't have to think at all about these aspects, so they might as well not exist.

In my current game I only have enemies on two sides (sea on the others) so maybe that reduces the cost of my military. However, I can only ever remember experiencing financial problems in any game (not even in this one, in fact) because of lots of animals I save for my second city. Once I found the second city, my financial problems disappear.

 

[BlueGenie]

Difference in playing styles really. I do play on Eternity though too, which might make a difference in incomes and how long it takes to remedy health/happy issues. If nothing else the turn examples I might use are for Eternity so would be a lot lower on Snail. Don't know how much lower though.

Wealth: I also tend to save up a load of animals, and that costs a lot of money. With additional cities that starts getting better but not overly abundant. Then again I do spread out to 6-10 cities decently fast once I can build my Tribes and get to Chiefdom. That puts a serious dent in any income I have though I can manage to keep it in the positive most of the time.

Health: Is a serious issue in the first city until several techs down the line. With a bad start my initial city doesn't even start growing until 100-300 turns into the game, due to health issues. With a good start I can start growing right away, with +1-2 food per turn. Most are somewhere in-between. Since I also prioritize hammers and commerce in the Prehistoric Era I do build a bunch of + buildings (which might change, or not, come the disease mod) so even when gaining more health from various sources I still occasionally get unhealthy cities, sometimes lasting a long time too. In the Classical Era in my current game I finally managed to get my 18 pop capitol healthy again via Church Civic, I have an extra 2 to grow into. It's basically been unhealthy throughout most of the ages so far.

Happy: This also comes down to over expanding as soon as Tribes become available. This I do keep above level though so I don't have any citizens. Basically it's :happy: and that governs my expansion rate; can I afford it in pure costs, and will I end up with citizens? If not then I sneak in another city.

I probably could keep my income, happy, and health pretty high throughout the whole of Prehistory by being a little less aggressive in my expansion, by not keeping as many animals as I do, and by prioritizing health more over hammers and commerce. But where's the fun in that. *grin*

Cheers

 

[JosEPh_II]

My science slider is always at 100% because so many buildings produce gold. In other words I don't have to think at all about these aspects, so they might as well not exist.

You do realize that at game start you can not put any Gold into Culture slider because you have to develop it. And the same is mostly true for putting Gold into the Espionage Slider. Until you meet a neighbor you don't have to worry about Esp. So yes you research slider for most of the Prehistoric Era can stay at 100% unless you Want to slow down your research and stockpile some Gold for later expansion costs.

And it Very very much depends on your play style (DOYPS). Which is probably 99% different than mine or BG's or DH's.

We've had this "Battle" over the "too much Gold, Health, Happiness" for 23 versions and it goes back even further for some of us to Rise Of Mankind days and then A New Dawn days. It's an old tiresome war. And for the most part if you change your play style then your opinion on it changes too. If you take advantage of every advantage you the player has and do Not curb yourself then you have no one else to really blame. Put some limits on what you do in-game and the challenge becomes better. No self control and eventually any game becomes "boring" or "too much gold, yadda, yadda mantra".

And I've seen this happen too, we restrict those 3 items and then ppl start complaining that the AI got dumber again. There is a direct correlation, take the gold away and the AI struggles too.

JosEPh

 

[Epona222]

Sorry for the double post, but this is kinda important.

With BlueGenie's help I figured how to use the BBAI techcost tag, and so have made MAJOR changes to the tech progression by era. It is as follows:

Prehistoric: 100% time to research things (same as before).
Ancient: 150% time to research things.
Classical: 200% time to research things.
Medieval: 200% time to research things.
Rennaisance: 250% time to research things.
Industrial: 300% time to research things.
Modern: 400% time to research things.
Transhuman: 400% time to research things.
Galactic: 500% time to research things.

I would appreciate feedback on this change, as it is pretty huge, and it is still subject to change.

I'd appreciate it if you (or anyone else who knows!) could remind me which XML file to look at to change this, I know I've done it before but it took a while to find it - I am sure for games on speeds and difficulty levels different to the settings I play on it is a good change, but I enjoy a more sandbox game on the lowest difficulty setting (which I know hasn't been balanced for C2C) and my research is now taking so long compared to my hammer output that I consistently run out of things to build in my cities!

I'm not asking for anyone to concentrate on balancing that difficulty level btw, I doubt many people use that difficulty setting and it's just something I enjoy as a bit of fun (I've always been into sandbox rather than competitive games) - I just like to know where to make my own tweaks so I can set it up in a way that makes me happy

Cheers!

 

[ls612]

I'm sorry I didn't respond to the recent posts, but this sort of makes them outdated.

After all the helpful feedback on my original gamespeed balancing by JosEPh, Bluegenie, Koshling, and others, I have instituted my second pass at this. Below are the full details.

Gamespeed Turn#s and Research Modifiers

Snail:

(Era: Turns/Techs/Research Modifier)

Prehistoric: 750/88/100 --- 50KBC-8000BC
Ancient: 800/41/222 --- 8000BC-1000BC
Classical: 900/45/250 ---1000BC-500AD
Medieval: 600/36/400 --- 500AD-1300AD
Renaissance: 900/56/250 --- 1300AD-1800AD
Industrial: 900/75/300 --- 1800AD-1950AD
Modern: 900/64/400 --- 1950AD-2025AD
Transhuman: 600/49/400 --- 2025AD-2125AD
Galactic: 900/74/500 --- 2125AD-2275AD

TOTAL: 7250 Turns

Eternity:

(Era: Turns/Techs/Research Modifier)

Prehistoric: 1500/88/100 --- 50KBC-8000BC
Ancient: 1600/41/250 --- 8000BC-1000BC
Classical: 1800/45/300 ---1000BC-500AD
Medieval: 1200/36/400 --- 500AD-1300AD
Renaissance: 1800/56/300 --- 1300AD-1800AD
Industrial: 1800/75/300 --- 1800AD-1950AD
Modern: 1825/64/400 --- 1950AD-2010AD
Transhuman: 1080/49/400 --- 2010AD-2100AD
Galactic: 1800/74/500 ---2100AD-2250AD

TOTAL: 14405 Turns

Epic:

(Era: Turns/Techs/Research Modifier)

Prehistoric: 300/88/100 --- 50KBC-8000BC
Ancient: 320/41/222 --- 8000BC-1000BC
Classical: 260/45/250 ---1000BC-500AD
Medieval: 240/36/400 --- 500AD-1300AD
Renaissance: 360/56/250 --- 1300AD-1800AD
Industrial: 360/75/300 --- 1800AD-1950AD
Modern: 365/64/400 --- 1950AD-2025AD
Transhuman: 240/49/400 --- 2025AD-2125AD
Galactic: 360/74/500 --- 2125AD-2275AD

TOTAL: 2895 Turns

As always, feedback is appreciated here.

@Epona: The numbers are in the CIV4EraInfos. To change things to how they were, change the value of all the <iTechCostModifier> tags to 0.

 

[azcore]

As always, feedback is appreciated here.

@Epona: The numbers are in the CIV4EraInfos. To change things to how they were, change the value of all the <iTechCostModifier> tags to 0.

Are neandtherthals supposed be here right from the start?
I have been wiped by two neandtherthals on turn 17 (snail speed), afair there was no neanderthals so early in the game with previous revisions.