Its seriously too hard to defend against horses built out of riding school. 3 Movement speed horseman - when all I have are trails, makes it impossible to mobilize in time. If you don't want to nerf riding school at least make it require military training or something, getting it in prehistoric era is just totally overpowered.
C2C Balance Thread
- Thread starter ls612
- Start date
Its seriously too hard to defend against horses built out of riding school. 3 Movement speed horseman - when all I have are trails, makes it impossible to mobilize in time. If you don't want to nerf riding school at least make it require military training or something, getting it in prehistoric era is just totally overpowered.
Maybe the AI is too far ahead of you tech-wise. Are you playing Deity?
I just wanted to post a few observations about the current balance of crime, based on my current game.
The game is rolling SVN, started when V26 was released. Huge map, marathon speed, immortal difficulty at the start, with increasing difficulty.
Essentially I think things felt pretty well balanced up until about mid classical (I'm in late classical currently).
Throughout the game (and still, though starting to lessen now) I've had to battle against unhealth, but this has felt manageable and generally balanced pretty well. Until mid classical my biggest problem (apart from wars and so on!) was keeping crime under control. I have had to fight until very recently, to hold it under 200-250 per city in my larger cities, and had to use both buildings and units to keep it in check. This added some challenge and generally felt about right for the difficulty (bear in mind this is at deity after about the first 100 turns).
However, with the advent of code of laws, crime suddenly became WAY easier to manage in one huge step, and my city's dropped to circa 100 crime or less very fast and easily. As a result my net income, which I'd been struggling to keep at small positive levels, has not shot up to 450+ per turn (14 cities at this point), and I'm back in too-much-gold land. Somewhere around here the balance has been lost and things have just gotten too easy.
I think the cause is that too much comes at Code of Laws, and at least one of those things (below) is probably over powered. Code of Laws gives courthouses, law schools, AND law firms all from the one tech. That's -30 crime per city per turn all from one tech (which is a drop of 300 in the city's equilibrium crime level).
Furthermore, the law firm seems criminally good (sic)!
+4 gold
+2 espionage
-10 crime
Nothing bad about it at all (is the +4 gold a mistake and should be -4??).
IMO two things should change:
1) These three buildings need to move apart a bit in the tech tree. Courthouse at CoL is fine. Law School I think should logically come in with education or something. Law Firms maybe not until corporation. That might be splitting them apart a bit too extremely, but they seem like the realistic techs (maybe you could have a law-keepers Guild at guilds or something to span the gap a bit)
2) Law Firm either needs a negative (IMO it should cost money, so negative gold not positive - it's already saving you a ton due to its crime effect), or it needs to be later (if it was right out at corporations maybe it would be ok) and/or cost a LOT more to build.
The game is rolling SVN, started when V26 was released. Huge map, marathon speed, immortal difficulty at the start, with increasing difficulty.
Essentially I think things felt pretty well balanced up until about mid classical (I'm in late classical currently).
Throughout the game (and still, though starting to lessen now) I've had to battle against unhealth, but this has felt manageable and generally balanced pretty well. Until mid classical my biggest problem (apart from wars and so on!) was keeping crime under control. I have had to fight until very recently, to hold it under 200-250 per city in my larger cities, and had to use both buildings and units to keep it in check. This added some challenge and generally felt about right for the difficulty (bear in mind this is at deity after about the first 100 turns).
However, with the advent of code of laws, crime suddenly became WAY easier to manage in one huge step, and my city's dropped to circa 100 crime or less very fast and easily. As a result my net income, which I'd been struggling to keep at small positive levels, has not shot up to 450+ per turn (14 cities at this point), and I'm back in too-much-gold land. Somewhere around here the balance has been lost and things have just gotten too easy.
I think the cause is that too much comes at Code of Laws, and at least one of those things (below) is probably over powered. Code of Laws gives courthouses, law schools, AND law firms all from the one tech. That's -30 crime per city per turn all from one tech (which is a drop of 300 in the city's equilibrium crime level).
Furthermore, the law firm seems criminally good (sic)!
+4 gold
+2 espionage
-10 crime
Nothing bad about it at all (is the +4 gold a mistake and should be -4??).
IMO two things should change:
1) These three buildings need to move apart a bit in the tech tree. Courthouse at CoL is fine. Law School I think should logically come in with education or something. Law Firms maybe not until corporation. That might be splitting them apart a bit too extremely, but they seem like the realistic techs (maybe you could have a law-keepers Guild at guilds or something to span the gap a bit)
2) Law Firm either needs a negative (IMO it should cost money, so negative gold not positive - it's already saving you a ton due to its crime effect), or it needs to be later (if it was right out at corporations maybe it would be ok) and/or cost a LOT more to build.
Hydromancerx
C2C Modder
In my game horses saved my life. Russia had like 3 huge armies of Atl-Atls and they took down 2 of my 4 cities. I turtled up and defended my horse resource. Once I was able to build horsemen I built as many as I could and was able to take back by my 3rd city. The 4th city however was razed since it was only size 1 when they attacked it.
Russia is still a problem but at least I can quickly surround them off before they get to my city. Also the AI wised up and upgraded to Spearmen so no more Atl-Atl massacres. Also did I mention I am like 2nd to last and Russia is like 3rd best? Pirates and Brazil are #1 and 2. However they constantly switch places on who is most powerful.
JosEPh_II
TBS WarLord
That's Sgts problem, sounds like he has No mounted units, or neglected them. Of course if you only put 2 defenders in a city anymore, even in early Preh, you're just Asking for trouble. And if you neglect adding Towers to your walls, well you might as well station most of your defenders on the forested hill next to the city.
Maybe the mod is catching up to playstyle here?
JosEPh
Maybe the mod is catching up to playstyle here?
JosEPh
Hydromancerx
C2C Modder
I had 5 defenders; 2 Slingers, 2 Stone Spearmen and 1 doggy. 
Its not the horses, its the Riding School-50% production cost for a whole plethora of units.
+2 XP for them all.
And free Speed promotion « This is really hard to deal with since the horseman literally pawn everything and all I have to defend is movement speed 1 units on trails.
I think something like -30% production cost, +3xp and no free speed is more than ample.
Its probably the best building in the game by a mile if you ask me.
Let me add some context - when Congo first got riding school we both had our capital and 2 size 1 cities.
In order to keep my 2nd size 1 city, I had to reload about 4-6 times trying different builds and stuff, and finally kept it alive. (It was in an important place).
To do this I had to have about a 2-1 unit advantage right from the start, and I had to speed build ALL the defensive buildings with those merchant guys.
Even then, I would lose like 60% of the time when horseman attacked into my city which was full of atl-atl and stone spearman all with Combat2 + anti-mounted promotions. He was building 1 horse every turn out of his capital with surplus hammers so it was like 4 horses every 3 turns. I could build 1 atl-atl or half a spearman per turn in my cap.
He just kept the pressure on and expanded etc.
Cut a long story short, when I had 6 cities, he would break up groups of horses and hit from top middle bottom and it was virtually impossible because my units were so slow. I basically had to load a number of times when his army caught me by surprise - so that I'd know where he came from, and could have an adequate 15+ units in that city.
The other problem was gatherers were impossible to keep and even killing rogues was impossible because if I left units outside of cities unless they were in a stack of at least 4-6 they were dead because all his dudes have 3 movement compared to my 1.
*After-thought maybe horseman should get -20% vs melee or something. Strength 6 units with 3 movement vs strength 3 unit with 1 movement, its hardly fair.
** Oh and compare the flint knapping hut to riding school, its half the cost 240 hammers vs 480. It gives +10% build time to spearman, archer, javilneer (all 3 waaaay off into the future), and stone axeman and stone spearman. Thats it.
10%! Compared to 50% even as far forward as CAVALRY, +2xp for sh1tload of units, Free speed that lasts all the way till ASSAULT MECHS! , +1 culture.
Heaven forbid!
@Koshling: Regarding your crime proposals, I'm pretty sure that having Law Firms at only code of laws is a bug. It probably should be moved to Corporations. I Agee with your suggestions about the crime situation as well, although I'd like to see how big your cities are, to be able to have so little Crime.
Heaven forbid!
@Koshling: Regarding your crime proposals, I'm pretty sure that having Law Firms at only code of laws is a bug. It probably should be moved to Corporations. I Agee with your suggestions about the crime situation as well, although I'd like to see how big your cities are, to be able to have so little Crime.
I'm not at the game now, but they are circa 18-20 ish population. They have a bunch of crime fighting. It's in them though because I had to use those to hold crime down before CoL, which means it now drops right away and I won't have to worry about it again until, they are at least mid 30s in size. The issue is just that it's too sudden - the total amount is fine eventually once cities get larger, but coming all at once it means that I basically get 1-2 eras where crime won't be something rally need to think about significantly.
strategyonly
C2C Supreme Commander
You noticed this also, i didnt say anything, because as a player, i liked it, but as for balancing (not so much).
I do like all of your proposals, and they seem reasonable.
Thunderbrd
C2C War Dog
You know... when horses were introduced on the battlefield they were pretty much unstoppable at first. Do you have any idea what it would be like to face a mounted foe on horseback while you're on foot with a crude weapon? Not easy. I've always felt mounted weren't nearly strong enough in the open field in this mod (though it sounds like they've finally begun to capture the essence they should have at that era, that, OMG how am I supposed to combat THIS? essence.)
Hydromancerx
C2C Modder
I have to agree with Thunderbrd. Horses for a long time in the game were not that strong, now the can actually compete with the other units.
JosEPh_II
TBS WarLord
And all the more reason to attempt to get Other Mounted units as well. But remember that if you have the Option that Limits National Units you can only have 15 Bear, Bison, Deer, etc. riders at a time. So search out those Horse and Elephant and Camel resources asap.
I will agree to one point Sgt has made, the Flint Knappers Hut is an after thought cause it is so weak. I generally don't bother with it. Cause really, just a 10% increase in time to build a stone spear or ax, meh. If it takes me 3 turns to build one what does it really do? I would have to load my build list with stone warriors and what, get an extra one every 28 turns?
:sux Too much other stuff to building than wasting valuable build time on that scenario. Plus it does come to late imo.
JosEPh
I will agree to one point Sgt has made, the Flint Knappers Hut is an after thought cause it is so weak. I generally don't bother with it. Cause really, just a 10% increase in time to build a stone spear or ax, meh. If it takes me 3 turns to build one what does it really do? I would have to load my build list with stone warriors and what, get an extra one every 28 turns?
:sux Too much other stuff to building than wasting valuable build time on that scenario. Plus it does come to late imo.JosEPh
Just nerf riding school to 20% or 30%, - Free speed promo AND 50% reduction is ridiculous, you would think its a wonder reading it.
How about giving flint hut a buff while your at it? 10% cheaper units that usually take 1 or 2 turns sometimes 3 is pretty bloody useless - especially when you compare it to riding school. How about you just make flint 10% for axes and maces, but 40% for spear or something (since spears aren't good at anything else really). Except trying to stay alive.
How about giving flint hut a buff while your at it? 10% cheaper units that usually take 1 or 2 turns sometimes 3 is pretty bloody useless - especially when you compare it to riding school. How about you just make flint 10% for axes and maces, but 40% for spear or something (since spears aren't good at anything else really). Except trying to stay alive.
You noticed this also, i didnt say anything, because as a player, i liked it, but as for balancing (not so much).
I do like all of your proposals, and they seem reasonable.
Ok, nobody seems to have disagreed, but these are Hydro's items, so need his view...
shenryyr
serval
it's more than a little weird that barracks and garrison buildings -add- crime to your city when the units they build reduce crime. in comparison, guard dog trainer reduces crime, and builds guard dogs which also reduce crime.
Well, soldiers do commit crimes, but they also prevent them. If it were up to me the Barracks and Garrison buildings would be crime-neutral.
before 19 century soldiers soldiers and most importadly garrison troops were unuducated brutes that commanders even allowed them to steal or rep to gain morale so they should give a bit of crime
But their power of intimidation would often suppress other crimes that may have occurred otherwise.
crime doesnt necessarily means someone that does a bad thing and goes to jail rather someone that does a bad thing.second crime doesnt not cover what happened in only one person but because there is not law more will happen.third when i come to rape your dauther i dont thing that time you will look if i am armed or you will forget it afterward because of it
