Can one believe in life before birth and be pro choice?

onejayhawk

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One of the many points in dispute between pro life and pro choice is whether a fetus is alive prior to birth.

Assuming that life begins prebirth, is it morally or ethically possible to choose to abort the pregnancy?

What special circumstances, if any, would tip the scales?


For purposes of this thread, let us assume third trimester.

One argument is that the state has the authority to take life. By making abortion legal, the state has delegated that authority to the woman. While this is a bit cold, it is essentially the position of every politician that says, "It's the law."

J
 
A distinction of life and personhood as the relevant factor is common among people who are pro choice.
 
Isn't a fetus life from the time it's 1 cell to the time it ceases to exist?

A cell is life, right?

If murder is the taking of innocent human life, then abortion is clearly murder. All books on embryology states that from conception that we have life and since we have life we have a human being. One of the greatest ironies of the pro-choice segment is that they have no qualms about ending human life if it in the womb, but have many conjectures about ending human life after they have been found guilty of a capital crime.
 
If murder is the taking of innocent human life, then abortion is clearly murder. All books on embryology states that from conception that we have life and since we have life we have a human being. One of the greatest ironies of the pro-choice segment is that they have no qualms about ending human life if it in the womb, but have many conjectures about ending human life after they have been found guilty of a capital crime.

That's not what irony is.
 
One of the many points in dispute between pro life and pro choice is whether a fetus is alive prior to birth.

Assuming that life begins prebirth, is it morally or ethically possible to choose to abort the pregnancy?

What special circumstances, if any, would tip the scales?


For purposes of this thread, let us assume third trimester.

One argument is that the state has the authority to take life. By making abortion legal, the state has delegated that authority to the woman. While this is a bit cold, it is essentially the position of every politician that says, "It's the law."

J

I somewhat fit into this category. I have sufficient reason to believe (and I worked very hard to acquire this knowledge) that fetuses begin to become sentient during the third trimester, and that this sentience gives them moral value infinitely greater than their moral weight before the onset of sentience.

I think of a 20 week fetus insignificantly different from an egg, though I recognise the social difference (like the difference people have between, say, a fawn and a cow). But, the difference between a late-term fetus, an adult, and a fully demented senior is a question of degrees. A night & day difference from an embryo.

Now, that said, I find 'medical necessity' a reasonable out when it comes to abortion. I mean, if there's a serious risk of trauma, then it becomes a matter of self-defense. It's recognisably awful that the fetus is given lesser consideration, but I think it's best just to acknowledge that it's a dilemma. The lack of fetal sapience is a real saving grace here, for me, because I'm extremely sympathetic to the viewpoint that the fetus is the more innocent party here.

That leaves us with the subset of 'on-demand' abortions we can imagine being done for 'convenience'. Morally, they're a really sticky situation. Practically, I'm not sure they're all that common. If I'm 'okay' with legislation that insists a doctor sign off on the medical necessity, then I guess that technically makes me no longer completely 'pro-choice'. I don't think the number of women affected by such things are all that high.

In a completely 'post-hoc' justification sense, I believe that being perfectly 'okay' with pre-24 week abortions free up a lot of room in the pro-choice victory-space. And, I think making sure medical necessity is protected is important, er, for medical necessity. The number of potential victims is a lot smaller than many other arrangements, and it's important to not let 'perfect' be the enemy of 'good'.
 
The state has the authority to take life, and they delegate that authority to the mother? Oh heck no. Since when does the state's authority trumps our own families? What is this, North Korea? Oh yeah, their internet is down. I forgot.
 
A fetus doesn't have the right feed off somebody's body. If you think it does, then I expect a heart donation from you when mine begins to fail.
 
I think many pro life people measure life from birth in many areas. For example, voting age and drinking age laws measure time from birth rather than conception. Many tax deductions and credits related to children are only available from birth rather than from conception. Many social programs that take into account the number of children in a family only count those born, not those conceived.
 
A distinction of life and personhood as the relevant factor is common among people who are pro choice.

In this thread, we are agreeing that there is a person, in the third trimester, prior to birth.

The state has the authority to take life, and they delegate that authority to the mother? Oh heck no. Since when does the state's authority trumps our own families? What is this, North Korea? Oh yeah, their internet is down. I forgot.

Since weapons were invented. This is why police are allowed to use lethal force.

As for the rest, I was summarizing what appears to be the default position of many politicians.

A fetus doesn't have the right feed off somebody's body. If you think it does, then I expect a heart donation from you when mine begins to fail.

Not a fetus, an unborn or preborn person. In this thread, that is a given.

J
 
Isn't a fetus life from the time it's 1 cell to the time it ceases to exist?

A cell is life, right?
No. Unless you want to be held criminally responsible for all the dead cells your body ends up with every single day of your life...

If murder is the taking of innocent human life, then abortion is clearly murder. All books on embryology states that from conception that we have life and since we have life we have a human being. One of the greatest ironies of the pro-choice segment is that they have no qualms about ending human life if it in the womb, but have many conjectures about ending human life after they have been found guilty of a capital crime.
One of the greatest ironies of the pro-life segment is that they have no qualms about using every means possible to force women and girls to go through with unwanted pregnancies (such as those resulting from rape, incest, or contraception failure), shaming and harassing women who even go into a clinic to get information (some of them are there for reasons totally unrelated to pregnancy), but have many conjectures about actually helping these women and girls raise healthy children after they've been forced to give birth. It really does give the impression that these kids are only wanted while they're still in the womb, and after they're born, they're just unwanted garbage that society has to pay for if the mother happens to be unemployed, still in school, if she has health problems, and so forth. They want the kids born, but they don't care if they ever have even one day's worth of a decent life.

Pro-life? Yeah, tell me another fairy tale. :rolleyes:
 
Isn't a fetus life from the time it's 1 cell to the time it ceases to exist?

A cell is life, right?

Don't confuse people with facts. Modern societies need to distinguish murder from abortion, so some fiction about the definition of life is convenient for 'legal' and 'moral' reasons.
 
Well, we kind of need to, just because we've learned so much. "Life", while seemingly a very obvious concept, is actually not an iron-clad heuristic. Especially not enough to use to command women's wombs without a very good and very true reason. Biology is fuzzy. It doesn't conform to our whims.
 
People have argued for various reasons that a women has a right to kill a weaker being residing within her body because he/she is in her body, because of how he/she got there, or for feminist reasons that it would be immoral for a stronger agency such as a state to interfere with her 'freedom' here. 'Life' as a concept is far more important in other areas of modern society, and I suspect that attempting to lawyer its meaning to legitimize such actions will be self-defeating in the longer term. It is much better to use something like 'sentience' for these purposes, because it is vague and has indecisive evidence, thus allowing society to reach consensus about separation between killing as crime and as expression of natural rights.
 
Pangur Bán;13613429 said:
Don't confuse people with facts. Modern societies need to distinguish murder from abortion, so some fiction about the definition of life is convenient for 'legal' and 'moral' reasons.

In this case, don't confuse with irrelevancies. It should be clear that "life" means a human life, distinct from the mother.

As el Machinae says, the line of demarkation is non-obvious. In this thread we are assumed to have crossed that line.

J
 
Being simple minded as I am, I just presumed that people would think that a human fetus was human. What species is a human fetus then?
 
No. Unless you want to be held criminally responsible for all the dead cells your body ends up with every single day of your life...

But biologically speaking, isn't 1 individual cell alive? Doesn't it satisfy all the scientific parameters required to be called life ?

I think legally speaking what matters is the legal definition of a person and at which point personhood begins - which is sort of arbitrary and doesn't seem to rely on biological facts. But I'm not a lawyer or a doctor.
 
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