Capto Iugulum: 1920 - 1939

ooc: Actually that was Pope Paul VI's (quite successful) attempt to redirect moralism along more Catholic prinicples and ensure it didn't warp into something unsavoury to the Church.

It is not a summary of the Church's arguments against secular humanism/proletarism/liberalism ;)
 
I'd like to put up a general argument for social proletarism, but the OOC time investment of arguing with Il Papa is a bit outside of my budget right now. I do imagine that, IC, Ole Gudrunsson would probably love to butt heads, although given that Vinlandic is overwhelmingly Lutheran, with an Orthodox minority, we probably don't pay a great deal of attention to Bishop of Rome.
 
@EQ: I would like the public infrastructure to be a recurring policy rather than a one time thing. Does that get implemented now or do I wait till the next round of orders?
 
On Humanism, Secularism, and Moralism

by Professor Jules Nouveau

Here at the University of Toulouse a paper has been making the rounds of the various departments. This short entreaty for a stronger opposition to the eerie Moralism of South America has justly received great applause by liberals in this country, and I would like to substantiate why I think it should be a calling for liberals worldwide to adopt Humanism proudly as a set of principles which defiantly stand unbeaten by religious dogma. What terrifies writers like myself is the ironically immoral and necessarily violent conclusions of Moralism to both those who modestly disagree with Moralism’s tenets, the fragile minds of the young, and the freedoms which guarantee dignity and equality for all.

Humanists firstly reject the premise underlying all Moralist teachings, which is, man is inherently evil, and must be purged by righteous religious adherence. While somewhat venerable, at this point, the ideas of tabula rasa and human perfectibility must be revisited by Humanists, as they are indeed rightly critiqued by the Catholic Church as imperfect models for liberal society. The greatest pleasure nature has endowed mankind with is that of human solidarity, bettering one another to cope with the unpredictable world we reside in. No child needs to learn human solidarity, because it is instinctive to feel the pain of other human beings. Moralism however invents a common good which does not guarantee the freedoms of all, or require the improving of the human condition through direct government help for all castes in society, or even necessarily demand efficiency in industry so that the fruits of labour can reach all people; Moralism, by the Church’s own preaching, considers these progresses secondary to spiritual progress, because at the core of Moralism is indifference to this life and this world. So long as salvation through Catholic teachings can be obtained, the bettering of mankind is nice, but unnecessary. It should be the position of Humanists that, Catholic or Protestant, Muslim or even atheist or otherwise, the problems of this life are unambiguously more important than those of the next, and spiritual growth is the domain of the private life, not of the public purse.

The reason Moralism so adamantly fights this concept is precisely because it implies the natural rights and freedoms of human beings are more important than the enforcement of dogma. The freedom of religion, and therefore the separation of church and state, the rights of all humans to their own bodies and the rights of children to not be subjugated to indoctrination, are flagrantly violated by Moralism. The first Moralist Conference agreed on the banning alcohol, tobacco and contraceptives; the Catholic Church has banned all proselytizing of Catholics in their grossly given Palestinian lands, and various governments, including even the former bastion of liberal thought, Paris-Burgundy, have instituted forced education of Catholic teachings. These are atrocities no Humanist should tolerate, as they attack the most fundamental and self-evident rights of humans to their minds and to their, as some say - god given - liberty. Moralism hypocritically pretends to defend freedom of religion and democracy, but freedom of religion by definition requires strict secularism. There is no other way around this; to believe in freedom of religion, one must not politically recognize any religion as sacred, or any other as deviant, because either would endorse some religious thought over others, granting benefits to some individuals on no other basis than their professed faith. Moralism cannot ever say it defends freedom of religion, for it openly declares Catholicism to be truth incarnate. Humanists believe everyone has the right to not be coerced by any government measure, even implied measures, into joining a particular faith because everyone has the right to their own conscience.

The tendencies of Moralism are inherently coercive. When a state explicitly believes a specific faith is true, it is unavoidable that freedoms to speech, the press, and many others, are destroyed. This has been so clearly evidenced by the Thacker case in Chile, where the simple difference of opinion for a pathetically small Protestant minority was seen as so threatening as requiring the immediate expulsion (and theft of property) of a free man living in what was previously a very religiously tolerant society (demonstrating even tolerant societies are corrupted by Moralist leaders). Moralists in Brazil had nothing more than the ability to scoff that the Chileans went too far in even giving religious tolerance, let alone allowing Thacker his private opinions. There is no other word for this - it is barbaric. The Chilean government is terrified of a lone Protestant preacher, who may have affected the opinions of a tiny adherence, and so we outside these countries need to be prepared to oppose such tyranny.

The biggest failure of Moralism will always be that it encourages behaviour it also condemns. It is the most utopian of all ideologies because it on the one hand, believes democracies are good modes of government, but of course, only so long as they elect Moralist leaders, or that freedom of religion is fundamental to society, so long as Catholic religion is the freest of all. It is the a basic philosophical failure to say that the oppression of minorities, whether those minorities be people who flat out disagree that tobacco and alcohol are evil, religious minorities like Protestants or Jews, or people who believe sex is a positive loving act, and not something to be shamed with the banning of contraceptives, is not a component of Moralism, no matter how strenuously Moralists preach against oppression of minorities and so forth. The deviations from a given system, necessarily are a component of that system, the Catholic Church cannot condemn violence and intolerance while supporting regime’s which by their nature require intolerance and violence to force their platform onto the masses.

Humanists are skeptics of anyone who says they know the will of the people. The will of the masses isn’t something divined by morality, but determined by democratization which isn’t poisoned by the aggressive and anti-democratic bullying of Moralism. The phrases, of, “the common good”, or the “will of the people” are not without use, but the issuer must back up their claims, and cannot ever be accepted on assertions of religious beliefs. It is true that progress is not linear, and there are many paths to destruction in democracies free from Moralism, but Humanists embrace this danger, and take on the challenge to build better societies knowing that they must be vigilant against tyranny. Exploration of science, art, philosophy, history, governance, and law will bring to mankind more knowledge from which it can come to understand how societies may better themselves. Indeed, some of this knowledge may be dangerous, but Humanism understands that inaction on this means poverty and sorrow of all its varieties pervades forever. Humanism accepts the dangers inherent in trying to solve these problems, and must at every turn respect the private opinions of different Humanists on both how to fight on behalf of Humanism, and what Humanism is, because in this Humanists can take pride; our internal tensions remind us that we have still a long journey to emancipating and bettering all men and women of the world, so we shall be united in our diversity as humankind.
 
J.K. Stockholme: The Septembrist party was the party that founded the Confederation and ran it since the Great War. What I am saying is that I think that, sooner or later, the people of the Confederation ought to feel regret at the fall of the Confederation and complete loss of international traction, and feel nostalgia for Confederation-style secular liberalism, which is a very good antithesis to moralism and Drexlerism; and it would be very odd indeed, in my opinion, if some kind of Septembrist movement didn't resurface sooner or later, seeing as it is the only movement that is a plausible movement of simultaneous protest at the Germans and Moralism at the same time - and, given the history of the Confederation, it strikes me that the vast majority of ex-Confederate citizens, especially in Burgundy but elsewhere too, ought to dislike both Germans and Moralism to some extent. Of course Septembrism rightly suffers ire from losing the war, but in the circumstances I think that a third ideology of some sort (socialism would do too, but given Septembrism's historical dominance the latter, or at least a coalition of socialism and Septembrism, seems more likely) ought to arise fairly swiftly, as pro-German and Moralist parties ought not to dominate the scene: I think that the Confederation should be full of people who would not momentarily consider voting for either.
 
On Truth, Error and Secularism

~ Fr Francis Oullet

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The recent journal article by Prof. Nouveau incarnates many of the liberal fears regarding the doctrines of the moralist movement, afterall it seems clear to me that his article is solely written out of misguided fear considering its many methodological flaws and blatant untruths. Furthermore it rests on certain assumptions that are empirically disprovable, failing utterly either to understand its subject of moralism as it is, or to understand the Catholic Church's teaching. His conclusions as such are questionable at best, where of course he does not engage in needless fearmongering. Therefore I shall firstly rebut his erroneous observations, before countering with criticisms of liberalism and challenging his false assumptions.

-

PART I: REFUTATION OF PROF. NOUVEAU'S ARTICLE

-

Spoiler :
with regards to the more blatant misunderstandings within Prof Nouveau's work, I must first (presumably these falsehoods are present due to religious ignorance on the part of Prof Nouveau) make it clear that the Church forbids contraception precisely because it believes the sexual act is holy and good. In respect for its sanctity, the Church upholds that it is sacrilegious and a perversion of nature to thwart the design of God by preventing the self-giving of man and woman in the form of Children from coming to be. It upholds that contraception is a a debasing of an act of love between man and woman into a mere exercise in mutual masturbation and empty pleasure. Furthermore the Church discerns temporally that widespread contraception only encourages promiscuity, the objectification of women as instruments of sexual pleasure, and the breakdown of the family through the increase in illegitimacy and general immorality and that all these things in paticular in the interests of the common good make contraception something that cannot be approved of in society.

On the other great and erroneous assumption of Prof Nouveau, let me clarify that the Catholic Church does not teach that man is inherently evil, for indeed the Church has always upheld scripture when it proclaims that God looked upon his creation and saw that it was good which self-evidently includes man. Rather the Catholic Church upholds that man is flawed and broken due to original sin, and thus inclined towards evil actions such as the kinds so clearly evident in war and in all injustice born from men. Nouveau tacitly accepts this position in expressing his understanding that the empirically false doctrine of human perfectibility, so cherished by the liberals, is an incapable foundation for building a good society.

In this light, and here I come to the argument of Dr Nouveau, the moralists, like the Church, promote the ideal of the common good. That is that the state and the society as a whole have an obligation to work for the greater good of all its members. Yet Nouveau in rejecting this principle states instead that that human solidarity is intrinsic to human nature. Yet it appears he confuses human solidarity, which is to say the corporate working of men together in society for the good of all, with empathy, which is the emotional connection of men to fellow men which is indeed intrinsic to human nature. Empathy does not however intrinsically imply that society works together for the good of all (as Nouveau assumes) and this is empirically provable, as the situation in Kongo and in the fortunately extirpated slaveocracies so eloquently attest. Furthermore empathy clearly does not ensure that men, inclined to evil as they are, will not subsume the good in favour of acting out evil (as we can see in war and all manner of social ills) through their own free will. Man is a free agent and has free will, and this is something that Nouveau implicitly appears to deny with his deterministic and reductionistic assumption that men being empathic therefore must always work to the good. It is also an assumption he rejects himself through his criticism of Moralism misguided though it is.

This same Moralism however, in understanding that man has free will and often chooses to work evil in his own interest instead of good in service to his fellows, recognises that the consideration of the common good is necessary as a founding paradigm within any social structure, be it the state or the Church, in order to avoid the human tendency towards tyranny, and ensure that the greatest good for the greatest number most often is achieved. But what does this common good entail in practice?

Nouveau here is correct in one detail, which is that the Church and moralism as a product of Catholic thinking sees the spiritual good of the human person, his holiness and salvation, as fundamentally superior to his temporal good. The salvation of mans soul is naturally of higher merit than purely temporal matters, for the souls fate is eternal, but the life on earth is merely fleeting. Yet he errs in saying that moralism is unconcerned or indifferent to this life. The gospels clearly exhort men to charity and to love of neighbour. The seeking of the good of man in this life therefore is in itself a spiritual good when it proceeds from virtue and love of God. Thus the moralist government seeks, in conformity with the gospels, to encourage charity on the part of society, it seeks to engage in all the corporal works of mercy and it aims to promote conditions conductive to the temporal good of its members economically and politically. This is empirically evident in the policies of Brazil, Colombia and the Papal States amongst various entities of a moralist (or Catholic) persuasion, which have all engaged in programs to promote the temporal wellbeing of their citizens. It is true that Moralism is indeed opposed to putting temporal concerns over spiritual ones as Prof. Nouveau says, but the professor is reductionistic in his determination by failing to realise that in christian teaching the material is fundamentally intertwined with the spiritual, and that ultimately the material serves a spiritual end in and of its self in the moralist mind.

Prof. Nouveau as such simply fails to understand his subject on its own terms. This we can see when he states that moralism rejects (or subjugates) natural rights in favour of dogmatic teaching. A proposition made absurd by the fact he fails to even define how a right is determined. Moralism does in fact uphold natural rights, but it determines what a right is by an objective criterion instead of on the latest whim or opinion (as the secular humanists do) where some new right is proclaimed whenever men seek to justify their actions without reference to anything higher than themselves and their own egos. To the moralist a right is only a right if it is manifest through natural law, that it is clearly discernable in nature! Therefore the moralist affirms such truths as the right to life, the right to a free conscience and the right to truth, which all men women and children posess and that on these truths society must be build. This is a position elegantly proclaimed by Paul VI in his address to the continental nations in 1909

What is not a right however is anything contrary to nature or which harms the good, such as moral depravity, the subversion of society, the delusion that a man has license to do as he wilt. Indeed this is the definition implicitly held by all states by the very fact they have laws against such evils as murder and sodomy, including in liberal nations. This is so because it is fundamental to the human condition that the human person is not unbound by community or separated from his fellows, but rather exists in subjection to higher authorities and to a higher order of law that he is bound to obey for his good and for the good of all. Ergo he has a duty to the common good of which the Church and moralism speaks. The liberal secular humanists however, in relativistically making man the sole authority over himself deny this reality and promote a dictatorship of relativism which holds nothing for certain, and which is tyrannous precisely becaues it would deny the freedom of anyone to reject or oppose its advocates "Freedom" to indulge their own desires and cause self-harm to themselves and society.

Returning therefore to the reality that man is bound to community and to an authority above the self. Moralist states in percieving that alcohol, tobacco and contraceptives harm the good of the whole society and the individual, due to promoting ill-health, idleness and violence, and of course the previously mentioned vices with regards to contraception, and understanding that men do not have a "right" to harm society or themselves and that they are morally bound to the community (for drunkennes, and addiction harm the same), have rightly forbidden these things in order that men may not be enslaved to such drugs, but rather liberated. For moralism seeks the liberation of men from wordliness and selfishness, in order that their minds may be free to contemplate higher things and that they may be unhindered in their duty to serve the good. To the moralist, men and women have a right to good health and to be free to use their intellects unshackled from the slavery of dangerous addiction, and have no right at all to harm the community, it thus forbids these things in recognition of these rights, which come with corresponding duty to the collective (for rights inherently are linked with duty).

So too, moralism upholds that the state has obligations, both to the good of its citizens as mentioned and also to proclaim and support the truth. Moralist states, in having a duty to the truth, have rightly chosen to make the Catholic religion the religion of state and established Catholic education in their lands, so that men may know of the Catholic religion, which is the one true faith. However contrary to Nouveau's thesis this is not contradictory to the God-given right to a free conscience, for man, having free will remains free to choose his path once the truth is recieved. They recieve the truth through education, and yet they remain free to reject if they so wish without punishment from the state. Hardly an atrocity nor coercion, and indeed one would think a praiseworthy thing. Yet Nouveau would have men reject it in ignorance of what it truly teaches out of his own militant atheism, whereas the Church and the moralist would teach men about religion so that they may freely choose whether to follow the faith with full knowledge, understanding that men have the right to know the truth as fully as possible, and the right to reject it if they choose to do so.

He claims however that this recognition of religion, this upholding of truth is coercive (for he himself denies that the Catholic faith is true), yet if we look into his thesis' example (the Thacker case) we can see his methodological error in that he fails to realise that Thackers eviction was not a matter of religion, but rather of subversion against the State. Thacker proposed violation of Chilean laws, and the legitimacy of the government and so was expelled as a foreign agent precisely because he was harmful to society and worked against the common good, which he has no right to do even as he posseses a right to believe as he does.

Just as his analysis is riddled with methodological errors, so too does his criticism of moralism generally fall short of describing it as it is, as compared to what he wishes it to be for his own ideological purposes of promoting atheistic secularism. He does so incidentally in a way that is both confused and logically unsound. He proclaims for example that moralism is utopianistic, without actually explaining or pointing out what the (nonexistent) utopian teleological outcome of moralism he supposes exists actually is. He also artificially constructs moralist doctrine that does not exist. For example he states completely a priori without evidence, that moralism believes that democracy is a good form of government so long as it elects moralist leaders. This is of course false (what he references is the idea that it would ideal in a democracy for a moralist party to be always elected, which is precisely the position of the proletarists and the liberals and every other group about themselves, and is not a statement on the running of a democracy itself as a systemic means of choosing a government), as moralism upholds that democracy is but one form of forming a government not inherently better than others, and that if this form is used it should be upheld and accepted that moralists may not always obtain power. This position is held clearly by the governments of Brazil and Chile, the latter of whom in the last election freely allowed opposition parties to run and stated its conviction to step down if they lost the election.

Nouveau also states that moralism believes in freedom of religion, which is a falsehood that likely has emerged from his own secularism and presumptions. Moralism does not ideologically believe in freedom of religion (for all men are morally obliged towards truth and the true religion) but rather believes in freedom of conscience (that men while morally obliged towards truth are free to reject it). This means that moralism upholds that man should be free to believe what he will in his own intellect, but that he does not have a right to practice error or any religion he wishes without restraint, (for error has no intrinsic rights, only men do). Practice of cults other than the true faith is merely tolerated out of respect for the liberty of men to their own conscience and agency when that cult causes no harm to society or the common good. He then continues to proclaim that moralism is against minorities, using examples such as tobacco addicts, and protestants, ignoring the addicts right to be free of mind-slaving addiction, and the protestants right to the truth (while retaining his freedom of will to reject that truth), and failing to all the same to explain why minorities have intrinsic rights beyond those universal in nature to all human beings, a product of his own relativistic assumption which has rights proceed from human opinion.

From all this, it becomes clear therefore that Nouveaus analysis is deeply confused and divorced from the reality of moralism. Yet aside from this it also reflect much of the error that exists within secular humanism (for Catholicism is truly humanistic) itself. This I shall now address


PART II: THE ERRORS OF SECULAR HUMANISM

~ pending ~
 
I still see no compelling evidence that liberalism as a whole prescribes to a belief in human perfectibility. One can be skeptical or outright disbelieving of human perfectibility, but view secular liberalism as superior in practice to rigid adherence to the some religious-based tradition.

At any rate, bothering to debate the Pope in matters such as this seems to be an academic exercise of limited utility.

Also, Lucky, I can see how everyone in this NES has eventually come to loathe you. ;)

EDIT: By you, I refer to 'Lucky as Brazil', just to clarify.
 
To: Tadjoura
From: The Roman Empire
CC: The Russian Empire


As a call to all Romans living in Tadjoura, we urge cooperation with your fellow Russian citizens and the current monarch. You are surrounded on all sides by enemies who would love to tear you apart and kill you and your own. The last thing your young nation needs is to face enemies from within as well.

In the interest of regional stability and the safety of your fellow Tadjourans, cooperation between Russian and Roman must be had.
 
A Secular Response to Fr Francis Oullet

by Jules Nouveau

Spoiler :
To wake up the next morning and already have a response to my article, from a member of the clergy no less, is definitely heartening. I am especially proud Friar Oullet considers my conclusions to have achieved the status of “questionable”, which is all a secularist could ever desire. I indeed expect circulation of our debate to enlighten others of the controversy; therefore I will continue to develop the spirit of the Humanist Manifesto here against its antithesis of Moralism.

The fundamental proposal of Humanism is that morality must be based in secular thinking, and the numerous presuppositions of Friar Oullet refute themselves on this issue. The Moralist world has always and continues to pretend it supports freedom of religion, in Brazil especially, where they merrily tout they have preserved freedom of religion, despite overtly failing explicitly because of Moralism. The western world has accepted freedom of religion, because it is a self-evident right which I need not defend against the regressions of Friar Oullet. My article engaged with why Moralism will always fail to pretend to believe in freedom of religion; I would certainly have been speaking erroneously if I had said the Catholic Church believes in freedom of religion, which was not a component of my thesis.

I should clear up the Friar’s internally contradictory logic, and his both unsportsmanlike and intellectually dishonest semantics. Firstly, it is a core principle of Moralism that humans are naturally evil; whether the Friar prefers to say “naturally tend to evil”, or how I articulate it, is irrelevant. It is playing with words, not an actual debate, to say man is inherently good, but the unscientific concept of original sin made him evil, and therefore have it both ways. Humanists should be absolutely clear on this point, which Moralism can never understand, that human evil is primarily caused by circumstance. Poverty naturally inclines people to theft, just as bitterness and hatred, especially that caused by religious intolerance, allows people’s minds to tend towards murder and other crimes. True human evil, in the form of pure malice, is the territory of the sociopathic and psychopathic. When these human beings do not subsume to the good in favour of acting evil, they indeed do so out of a nature which must be corrected, but to throw away the burden of solving the causes of typical badness in society is flagrantly irresponsible, and the Friar’s theoretical base neglects the real source of conflict between human beings in favour of condescending religious dogma. Circumstance can overcome human solidarity, but we can all take pride in knowing that despite the economic or political strains put on people, we can overcome our conditions through communal activity at bettering society, not so we can curb social none-ills through the false prescriptions of Moralism, but so that we can economically uplift the foundations which cause human problems.

Symptomatic of Moralist thought is the idea that charity is all that is necessary for holding back the problems of circumstance, but again this method of helping the poor only prevents actual realization of the elimination of the worst kinds of poverty. It is again, completely irresponsible, to throw away the power of the state to directly benefit society through systematic social programs; charity is a good intermediary medicine for social problems, but to eliminate the disease requires significant government oversight, which is un-prioritized by Moralism. It is true Moralist nations in South America have made efforts to economically improve the lives of their citizens, but Humanism demands more than this; improving the lives of citizens is not secondary, it is not a gift from on high, it is the entire purpose of civilization. Moralism is indifferent to human betterment because it is obsessed with Catholic spiritual evangelizing, and the next world, rather than this one where real suffering can be prevented.

The Friar ineptly failed to refute my points on Thacker as well, where I demonstrated the negative tendencies of Moralism in government. Thacker was thrown out of Chile for rabble-rousing a tiny Protestant community, indeed, not for his religion, but this is exactly the point, that Moralists desire total control of the public’s mind, and are even afraid of a miserably small opposition to their views. Chile is the case example of where Moralism leads nations, because Thacker was thrown out for exercising a human right, his right to rabble-rouse and disagree with his government. He did not raise a paramilitary army, he did not commit murder or attempt an assassination, he was thrown out because he held opinions contrary to the Moralist “Truth” which the state couldn’t tolerate. If people were allowed to hear Thacker’s opinions, by god, they might agree with him, like the liberals who I applaud for their bravery in confronting the government in Santiago today.

I also fail to see how I am the deterministic one. People have free will, and have the right to make decisions about themselves so long as they do not hurt society, but Moralism conflates the personal decisions of individuals with greater social ills. The use of alcohol and tobacco isn’t enslaving, and it is the Friar who is deterministic in his absolute exclusion of the possibility of someone conscientiously choosing to consume these morally neutral substances. The choice of an individual to consume what he wishes has no wide reaching social impact, except on Catholic Moralist apologists, who of course are offended that someone would exercise their personal liberty. Another instance of having it both ways, I should add here, is the banning of contraceptives, because according to the Friar if sex is not used exclusively for procreation it is immoral, which is expressly what I was criticizing when I said Moralists shame the loving act of sex. The Friar praises sex as a positive and holy act, and then proceeds to admonish anyone who would actually have sex simply for the expression of love it is. As a secularist and a Humanist, I won’t have it both ways; sex is the highest possible act of love, and forcibly excluding anyone who wishes not to have children from expressing their love is coercive and destructive to the idea of love. It is not the place of any institution to make sex the exclusive purview of those who have children, because doing so degrades the status of women in society to house-keepers and baby-machines, which is violent to their rights as equal human beings who should be allowed to have the fullest possible discretion in the most personal decision of all, that of becoming a parent.

Finally, I will fully develop why the forced education of children into a particular faith (aside from a gross violation of freedom of religion and the separation of church and state) creates a dictatorship of “duty to the truth”, and why Moralism fails to recognize basic human rights for the same reason. Is it not true that those who believe in Protestantism, Islam, Hinduism, or any other belief system, with equal vigour and conviction, believe their version of spirituality is the only valid and true form of religion? Why would they do such a thing if Catholic Christianity were unambiguously The Truth? The reason, as the Friar would likely say, is because those who are not Catholics, obviously haven’t been taught Catholicism adequately yet, or in the words of a secularist, those who are not Catholics are so because we haven’t forced them to be Catholics yet. This is the greatest intellectual disappointment for myself in the Friar’s argument, because it is a tautological farce. Humanism puts morality outside of religious assertions; there is no doubt great moral wisdom resides within the Church and the Holy Bible, but the moral wisdom of any given belief must be judged independently and with great skepticism. For any child to, when they become an adult, make free choice about their religion, the child’s education must not have already pre-decided, not just that it prefers a particular religion, but that a particular religion is absolutely without question undeniable Truth. The lasting consequences of such education are the eventual indoctrination of enough of the masses that Moralist parties will not need to have elections, as they will have destroyed all free thought. This is what I call the dictatorship of “duty to the truth”. As any person given a basic education without the bias of Moralism will know, there is no such thing as a “dictatorship of relativism” as the Friar tries to define it as, unless he is referring to the just, free and peaceful liberal democracies which are thriving with their rights and secularism. I think Humanists can wear this term “dictatorship of relativism” as a badge of honour if it commits us to these healthy democracies. Unlike these completely fanciful dictatorships of whimsy and ego, actually horrible dictatorships have been setup in the Orthodox lands of Russia and its sphere, where people who think they know The Truth have already setup a self-perpetuating dictatorship of immorality (but of course, if only it were Moralist immorality, then it would be simply “liberating” people with the true Truth!).

Individuals have the right to moral depravity, or to let themselves be subverted, because if you do not, there is no freedom for individuals to determine for themselves what they think is right and just. I agree that morality is based on the nature of human beings, but this nature is ambiguous, and requires rigorous scholarship and academic discourse to fully understand the nuances and rationale of what public policy should from from common morality and the common good. Moralists are invited to join the debate on what is moral, but they must drop any pretension to having claims of absolute truth beyond debate, by definition; this of course is impossible for such an ideology, as its premise is built on it having long known what morality is before Humanists have entered the discussion, and this is what terrifies me.
 
@ Jehoshua: I'm not responding to any more, I can't do more than two essays per update.

also, just to prove Brazil has indeed claimed to have freedom of religion I can easily cite this: "Moralism is not about removing the freedom of religion or speech from the people."

@ Iggy: It is damn hard to quarrel with Catholic infallibility from a Catholic country. I'd think it'd be easier to fight the Pope from a Protestant country, and so you butting heads with the pope would be appreciated by liberals over here. :)
 
Brazil does have freedom of religion and has since the constitution was put in place a century ago.
 
@Stockholme,

Thanks for going head to head with Jehoshua. His sermonizing is well written and well argued so its nice to see the opposite point of view get similar attention with a similar attention to writing and genuine dialectic.
 
@Jehoshua: This might be a conversation more suited for the background thread, but could Moralism be applicable in a country with an Anglican-style church (i.e. it retains the hierarchical structure, sacraments, and other select tenets of Catholicism), and could it have a centralizing effect on the power of the monarch, assuming that the monarch is also the head of the church in that country?
 
@ Jehoshua: I'm not responding to any more, I can't do more than two essays per update.

also, just to prove Brazil has indeed claimed to have freedom of religion I can easily cite this: "Moralism is not about removing the freedom of religion or speech from the people."

@ Iggy: It is damn hard to quarrel with Catholic infallibility from a Catholic country. I'd think it'd be easier to fight the Pope from a Protestant country, and so you butting heads with the pope would be appreciated by liberals over here. :)

Oh indeed J.K. As I said earlier, I'm pretty sure that, In Character, Ole Gudrunsson would be eager to dig into a debate about liberalism with the Pope. And yes, a mostly-protestant nation such as Vinland would probably have an easier time arguing against the Pope, mostly because the Pope's words don't hold nearly as much sway in this corner of the world, as his beliefs aren't widely held here. However, I, as a writer, feel that I lack the vocabulary to do so accurately, so I find it difficult to write a sufficiently erudite character to dignify the conversation.

Were I better able to make a response, Ole's main points would be:

1. Characterizing liberalism as being contingent on human perfectionism is intellectually dishonest. That's not a logical prerequisite, and resembles a strawman in that it associates an ideology with an easily-dismissed notion.

2. The whole argument is predicated on the idea that there are true, objective morals that are known to man. Given the diversity of beliefs that rational and wise men have developed, it seems doubtful that we have found them.

3. Arguing with as firmly a Catholic organization as the Vatican is only useful as an academic exercise, or to try and prove a point to an undecided third party. Obviously, the Papacy believes itself to be infalliable in these matters, and rejects the notion that anything other than Catholic doctrine could possibly be correct. Challenging such hard-set views is more fruitless than arguing with Joseph Johnston.
 
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