Capto Iugulum: 1920 - 1939

[JohannaK]

OOC:

I don't count Brazil as a strong ally; sorry, but all of its military operations since the beginning of the century have ended with defeats, not counting joint destruction of outnumbered Spanish colonial garrisons in the Great War. Brazil's strength is in diplomacy, as a potential leader of the Moralist Axis. Maybe, by 1940s it will turn into a decent military power, but, sorry, not yet, based both on stats and the type of player Luckymoose seems to be.

Now, you are one big troll.

Are you egging me on? DO YOU WANT TO SEE WAR? I will bring a firestorm of hell and death upon the world to correct this besmirching of my name!

 

[Crezth]

The United States of America will have nothing any more to do with the so-called PADA if action against Florida is taken. Jacksonia is a known proletariat sympathizer and if Vinland refuses to see how the very procedure of doing nothing against proles is in and of itself strengthening to their cause, then we will be forced to assume that Vinland doesn't care about democracy at all.

OOC-

A ghost follower's comment: <snip>

Don't put so much important on stats. It's not the size of your country: it's what you do with it. A clever mind will beat a dull one any day of the week.

At least so far as NESing is concerned, where one mind fully embodies the entire political entity of a nation or nations.

 

[Ahigin]

Are you egging me on? DO YOU WANT TO SEE WAR?

Actually, that's exactly what I want. Although when I said that by 1940s Brazil may become a very decent military power AND a leader of the Moralist Axis, I was clearly hinting that I can wait until then to see Brazilian military in action. Capto Iugulum WWII will be epic!

Don't put so much important on stats. It's not the size of your country: it's what you do with it. A clever mind will beat a dull one any day of the week.

Of course, I always keep it in mind in such games. But the way Florida jumps into action doesn't look strategically clever to me. I'd say they act like a perfect provocateur, but provocateurs are the ones who end up being beaten once they're caught in the middle of action. And they are SO MUCH in the middle of action, it's ridiculous.

 

[Luckymoose]

The Empire of Brazil supports the United States and Florida in their anti-Proletarist campaigns for the greater good of humanity! Never again shall they commit those heinous crimes against the innocence of the world, may the banners of the brave jut immaculately from the mountain of freedom!

@Ahigin: You've seen it win World War 1 with less than a third of current potential. What makes you think it would fail? The war against Japan was barely a loss, and a hard fought one at that.

 

[EQandcivfanatic]

Consider this the 48 hour warning to get orders in. Remember, for those who have claimed nations, your claim doesn't stick unless you get orders in.

 

[Azale]

A ghost follower's comment:

Wow, that seems like a rushed decision. Based on the stats, I wouldn't say Florida possesses any serious military advantage over Jacksonia, so it's not like it's gonna be an easy imperialist takeover. And now it clearly proclaims destruction of PADA and proletarist countries as its goal, thus multiplying its enemies (it'd be very strange if PADA just let it slide) and making itself look like an obvious aggressor, without having any serious military support from other countries. I don't count Brazil as a strong ally; sorry, but all of its military operations since the beginning of the century have ended with defeats, not counting joint destruction of outnumbered Spanish colonial garrisons in the Great War. Brazil's strength is in diplomacy, as a potential leader of the Moralist Axis. Maybe, by 1940s it will turn into a decent military power, but, sorry, not yet, based both on stats and the type of player Luckymoose seems to be.

In other words, Florida, Y U SO SUICIDAL?

P.S. I know that tons of stuff is happening, and if some players are concerned that my comment may affect other players' in-game decisions, then please let me know. I will delete this post in order not to mess up the game.

OOC: I feel compelled by an accumulation of IC events, recently and in updates past. The personalities I (and the previous player, terrance) had constructed both for my internal factions and powerful politicians also makes this the kinda thing they would do.

I think I can win, yes, but more importantly I couldn't logically IC talk myself out of war.

You should join btw.

 

[Luckymoose]

Actually, that's exactly what I want. Although when I said that by 1940s Brazil may become a very decent military power AND a leader of the Moralist Axis, I was clearly hinting that I can wait until then to see Brazilian military in action. Capto Iugulum WWII will be epic!Of course, I always keep it in mind in such games. But the way Florida jumps into action doesn't look strategically clever to me. I'd say they act like a perfect provocateur, but provocateurs are the ones who end up being beaten once they're caught in the middle of action. And they are SO MUCH in the middle of action, it's ridiculous.

Brazil already is a more than decent military power.

 

[Ahigin]

@Ahigin: You've seen it win World War 1 with less than a third of current potential. What makes you think it would fail? The war against Japan was barely a loss, and a hard fought one at that.

I'm looking at it from both strategic and operational points of view (tactical level is not too important in Capto Iugulum). Strategically, what matters is how much you achieve in the end of the war or a specific campaign. Operationally, what matters is how you achieve your local goals that later may or may not transform into your strategic advantages.

Brazil won in WWI as a part of a bigger coalition, fighting against an overstretched colonial empire. It was a clear (and very impressive) strategic victory, achieved by predictable operational success on a secondary front against an enemy who had to deal with too many fronts at once. Brazilian fleet performed rather well on the Atlantic while helping the British fight off the Confederate fleet, but that operational success never transformed into any decisive advantage over the Continental Powers (like blocking their sea trade lines, for example). But, just as I said, in general, WWI was a clear success for Brazil, even though its main operational and strategic victories were scored in Africa, where Spanish defeat was rather predictable.

Other Brazilian military involvements were not as successful. Fighting the proles in the Second American Civil War ended up without achieving any operational or strategic goal. Operationally that campaign was a stalemate, which meant a huge strategic success for black slaves who were, in fact, fighting for independence and survival of their state.

Caribbean and Angolan involvements weren't of much importance, so I'll skip them.

The Pacific War was the second biggest conflict Brazil participated in after WWI. Let's take a look: a joint fleet of PADA and Netherlands fights against a single enemy in a defensive war. Operational goals of relieving Dutch garrisons in Indonesia and cutting Japanese sea lines of communication are not achieved, the Japanese successfully regroup and continue their advance, and as a result of the war, Dutch West India is lost. I'd say the whole war was a huge operational triumph for Japan. To give PADA (and Brazil alongside with them) a credit, the war was hard fought indeed, and the Japanese faced the least logistical problems of all participants. All in all, hardly an episode of glory for the Brazilian Navy.

If we assume that PADA and Brazil decide to actively participate in Florido-Jacksonian conflict, it would put Brazil into a very weird strategic situation. Instead of fighting a safe war overseas, it would have to fight against PADA members on its borders. Given strong natural defensive borders (the Parana river in the south, the Andes in the west, freaking Amazonia in the north), it won't have trouble surviving, but I doubt it would be able to actively support Florida. Exploiting naval superiority may be a way to keep the status quo, but still, I doubt Brazil would win that war. Probably, it'd be a costly stalemate.

Brazil already is a more than decent military power.

Well, yeah, not the best wording on my side. But still, it's a second tier military power. Nothing that makes prepared commanders tremble.

OOC: I feel compelled by an accumulation of IC events, recently and in updates past. The personalities I (and the previous player, terrance) had constructed both for my internal factions and powerful politicians also makes this the kinda thing they would do.

I think I can win, yes, but more importantly I couldn't logically IC talk myself out of war.

You should join btw.

Oh, that makes more sense now.

I totally wanted to join several times, but each time I had to stop myself. Work, raising a toddler, and Capto Iugulum is too much for me, I'm afraid. But right now I'm tempted once again. Man, you can't imagine my mental suffering.

P.S. Too bad Tadjoura is already taken; I think being Russian would help me role-playing them.

 

[J.K. Stockholme]

Some old guy can't even write the preface to a reprint of a historical document without a man of the church writing back. I think this is definition of totalitarianism

 

[EQandcivfanatic]

@Ahigin: I like you, you should join. As for time commitment, join as a Russian puppet (Romania for instance). There's not a lot of pressure for a Russian puppet to pursue anything. Why, just to make things easy, I'm sure TheLastJacobite would even tell you what to think.

 

[spryllino]

Some old guy can't even write the preface to a reprint of a historical document without a man of the church writing back. I think this is definition of totalitarianism

Well, he is an ex-Chair of Latin at one of the presumably most prestigious universities in the world, as well as the ex-ambassador to the LCN, so potentially one of the faces more familiar to those who were paying attention to politics a decade or two ago.

 

[Luckymoose]

I'm looking at it from both strategic and operational points of view (tactical level is not too important in Capto Iugulum). Strategically, what matters is how much you achieve in the end of the war or a specific campaign. Operationally, what matters is how you achieve your local goals that later may or may not transform into your strategic advantages.

Brazil won in WWI as a part of a bigger coalition, fighting against an overstretched colonial empire. It was a clear (and very impressive) strategic victory, achieved by predictable operational success on a secondary front against an enemy who had to deal with too many fronts at once. Brazilian fleet performed rather well on the Atlantic while helping the British fight off the Confederate fleet, but that operational success never transformed into any decisive advantage over the Continental Powers (like blocking their sea trade lines, for example). But, just as I said, in general, WWI was a clear success for Brazil, even though its main operational and strategic victories were scored in Africa, where Spanish defeat was rather predictable.

Other Brazilian military involvements were not as successful. Fighting the proles in the Second American Civil War ended up without achieving any operational or strategic goal. Operationally that campaign was a stalemate, which meant a huge strategic success for black slaves who were, in fact, fighting for independence and survival of their state.

Caribbean and Angolan involvements weren't of much importance, so I'll skip them.

The Pacific War was the second biggest conflict Brazil participated in after WWI. Let's take a look: a joint fleet of PADA and Netherlands fights against a single enemy in a defensive war. Operational goals of relieving Dutch garrisons in Indonesia and cutting Japanese sea lines of communication are not achieved, the Japanese successfully regroup and continue their advance, and as a result of the war, Dutch West India is lost. I'd say the whole war is was a huge operational triumph for Japan. To give PADA (and Brazil alongside with them) a credit, the war was hard fought indeed, and the Japanese faced the least logistical problems of all participants. All in all, hardly an episode of glory for the Brazilian Navy.

If we assume that PARA and Brazil decide to actively participate in Florido-Jacksonian conflict, it would put Brazil into a very weird strategic situation. Instead of fighting a safe war overseas, it would have to fight against PADA members on its borders. Given strong natural defensive borders (the Parana river in the south, the Andes in the west, freaking Amazonia in the north), it won't have trouble surviving, but I doubt it would be able to actively support Florida. Exploiting naval superiority may be a way to keep a status quo, but still, I doubt Brazil would win that war. Probably, it'd be a costly stalemate.

Well, yeah, not the best wording on my side. But still, it's a second tier military power. Nothing that makes prepared commanders tremble.
Oh, that makes more sense now.

I totally wanted to join several times, but each time I had to stop myself. Work, raising a toddler, and Capto Iugulum is too much for me, I'm afraid. But right now I'm tempted once again. Man, you can't imagine my mental suffering.

P.S. Too bad Tadjoura is already taken; I think being Russian would help me role-playing them.

I'd argue that you are incorrect on almost all points here.

1. Japan was almost entirely a war between Brazilian and Japanese fleets. The Europeans were next to useless.

2. Brazil contributed to the absolute dismantling of the Confederation and Scandinavian fleets in WW1. Then went on to achieve every war goal put forward, including Spain paying reparations to Colombia, which was the reason behind Brazil starting the war.

3. The Brazilian Navy is second only to Britain, and years ahead of other naval powers in terms of raw, modern strength. No power in the Americas could hope to win a naval war against it.

4. The Brazilian reserves of manpower and the Brazilian scientific advances in aeronautics and other fields, along with allied support and the economic power not matched by any PADA member, gives Brazil an insane boost in any such war with PADA. Argentina would not risk a land war with Brazil over Jacksonia, as that land war could not be won.

5. Air power and quality.

6. Secrets.

All in all, Brazil is not a second rate power. It does not require a huge standing army to defend itself, but can rapidly expand the ground forces with little issue. A land war in South America would favor Brazil. A land war in North America would favor Brazil. A war in the Americas would favor Brazil.

 

[qoou]

Well, yeah, not the best wording on my side. But still, it's a second tier military power. Nothing that makes prepared commanders tremble.

Brazil's navy and airforce alone could obliterate /anything/ short of a hemisphere-wide coalition against them.

In other news, Colombia is busy getting drunk, wandering what to do now that they're the world's largest crude oil exporter. Maybe we should become the world's largest refined oil exporter too.
Diplomacy will come later.

 

[JohannaK]

Brazil's navy and airforce alone could obliterate /anything/ short of a hemisphere-wide coalition against them.

Except for Japan.

 

[Luckymoose]

Except for Japan.

Which only ever combated, at most, half of the fleet.

 

[JohannaK]

The smiley is there for something.

 

[theDright]

To the Argentine Schismatics
From: Pope Pius X

As has already been explained, the tax reforms in the papal states consists solely of tax cuts to encourage investment, and the establishment of privacy rules to encourage use of financial facilities. There is no acceptance of usury (which is the practice of making unethical monetary loans), or practice of it, and indeed the Papal States has in place financial authorities precisely to combat it and ensure that our financial system provides a christian alternative to the usurious financial regimes of the secular world.

Needless to say, the liberality with the truth, and lack of comprehension of what usury is, is dissapointing.

To: Pius X
From: Argentine Old Church

Well we see things for as they actually are. Actually:

PAPACY REFORMS FINANCIAL POLICY. Rome, Papal States. In a controversial move, Pope Pius X has overseen the establishment of a new fiscal policy for the Papal States, claiming that the old ways of finance are no longer relevant. To this end the Papal States has abolished inheritance taxes and capital gains taxes. Income tax shall be lowered by ten percent from its current level for residents. Non-residents and companies belonging to them will not be subject to exchange controls. Corporate tax is to be kept low to encourage foreign investment, and utilization of extant finance in the papal states. Privacy laws to protect the banker-client confidentiality have also been installed. These laws mimic several laws passed by the Swiss, Danish, and Portuguese governments in the past twenty years, seeking to establish a strong and modern financial system. Opponents in the Papacy are concerned about the secularism of this approach, and the turn towards essential usury is not popular.

That is not what is described here. The claims that old ways of finance are irrelevant, the establishment of extreme privacy, and a modern financial system all indicate something on the order of secular banking. Usury is the lending of money for any guaranteed rate of interest, which is what you describe here.

Needless to say, claims of our liberality with truth and incomprehension of the meaning of usury are erroneous and a pathetic deflection from the issue at hand.

OOC: Don't really want to get into an argument about this. If the update is wrong, you should get EQ to correct it for us.

 

[Nuka-sama]

Jacksonia would like to point out that it is NOT a traditional proletarist government, it has, at every turn, offered to negotiate with Florida, and even now is more than willing to come up with a peaceful solution, and we point out that we are not responsible for the UPRA, the China incidents, or the massacres of the Americas. Please, be reasonable, and return to the negotiating table

From Jacksonia
To PADA

Do not let the Brazilians bully us. They wish to see our alliance destroyed. Let us stand together arm and arm as brother democracies of the Americas and defend liberty against the forces of tyranny.

 

[Ahigin]

@Ahigin: I like you, you should join. As for time commitment, join as a Russian puppet (Romania for instance). There's not a lot of pressure for a Russian puppet to pursue anything. Why, just to make things easy, I'm sure TheLastJacobite would even tell you what to think.

If I do join Russian puppets, I'm sure he won't even need to tell me much. I think I get his ideology quite well: "state is me" and "no man, no problem." Simple and effective.

Thank you for your offer, I'll think about that. Two crazy weeks are coming, but after they pass, I'll try my luck. Anyway, I send my respect to you for Capto Iugulum. I used to lead NESes on other forums and know how much commitment such games take.

I'd argue that you are incorrect on almost all points here.

1. Japan was almost entirely a war between Brazilian and Japanese fleets. The Europeans were next to useless.

2. Brazil contributed to the absolute dismantling of the Confederation and Scandinavian fleets in WW1. Then went on to achieve every war goal put forward, including Spain paying reparations to Colombia, which was the reason behind Brazil starting the war.

3. The Brazilian Navy is second only to Britain, and years ahead of other naval powers in terms of raw, modern strength. No power in the Americas could hope to win a naval war against it.

4. The Brazilian reserves of manpower and the Brazilian scientific advances in aeronautics and other fields, along with allied support and the economic power not matched by any PADA member, gives Brazil an insane boost in any such war with PADA. Argentina would not risk a land war with Brazil over Jacksonia, as that land war could not be won.

5. Air power and quality.

6. Secrets.

All in all, Brazil is not a second rate power. It does not require a huge standing army to defend itself, but can rapidly expand the ground forces with little issue. A land war in South America would favor Brazil. A land war in North America would favor Brazil. A war in the Americas would favor Brazil.

Ok, let's argue.

1. Of course, Brazilian fleet clearly was the biggest and most advanced among PADA forces. Yet, I noticed a tendency of Brazilian officials to take credits for joint operations, so I feel that a change of rhetoric may help Brazilian high staff to analyze its operations and wars more effectively.

Frankly, it made me wander who actually planned the Pacific War operations OOC. Maybe, Brazilian command shouldn't be blamed for that defeat after all.

2. Dismantling fleets and armies alone does not win wars, if success is not exploited. Effective destruction of the Confederate and Scandinavian navies was not followed with neither amphibious landings in Europe nor with interdiction of Continental Powers' exposed sea lines (which could cripple their economies). As a result, both the Confederacy and Scandinavia left the war practically unscathed. All in all, it was a typical Pyrrhic victory for Brazil: costly but impressive tactical success that didn't lead to any real gains.

As for making Spain pay reparations (far from total capitulation, by the way), it was almost inevitable once they found themselves fighting a war on multiple fronts all across the globe. I agree that naval superiority might have, in theory, helped them save their cause, but such thing was almost impossible to achieve only with the power of Spanish, Confederate and Scandinavian fleets. They faced too many naval-oriented opponents, and Brazil was clearly one of them.

3. On that I actually agree (although I would also add the Imperial Japanese Navy to the trio of strongest navies, because of its rich strategic options thanks to domination of the Western Pacific). But sure, in Americas Brazilian naval power is uncontested. The problem is, Brazil is not an island nation, and dominating the seas is not gonna be an effective defensive strategy in case such country faces war on its borders. Navy is good to cut European colonial powers from their colonies, but that's a completely different affair.

Although if you do successfully repel land attacks on you from Argentina and Peru, you may effectively cut off Jacksonia from the world and effectively strangle its economy. But it's an unlikely and very long scenario.

4. Brazil has an experimental jet-plane. It will probably pay back quite well in five to ten years. Not yet. Nazis also had experimental helicopters by late 1930s, which didn't help them in WWII. (BTW, they also had jet fighters in 1944, but by then it was too late). Overall, Brazil has an edge in some important fields, but an edge alone does not win wars, as Brazilian campaign against a bunch of revolting slaves had proved.

Plus, Vinland possesses a superior tank force, which Brazil can counteract only with effective close air support planes, which it doesn't have.

As for guessing how Argentina would act in case of an attack on PADA, I wouldn't be so sure. It's highly unlikely that they would have to fight on the defensive with Peru on their side. However, if they let it slide, next time Brazil decides to escalate tensions over another Catholic-Protestant scandal, PADA is not gonna protect it. So, I'd say for the Argentinians it's a no-brainer.

5. Sea planes and fighters. I mean, just like with the navy, Brazil will control the air, but it won't lead to any serious damage for the enemy land forces, unless Brazil immediately constructs and mass produces some diving bombers, close-air-support planes, or tactical bombers.

6. Well, secrets I have no idea about. Early nukes?

I'd say even a nuke needs to be delivered to the enemy by something other than a fighter plane. But who knows, maybe it's something different. May be a real thing, may be a bluff and a waste of money.

As for calling yourself a first rate military power and insisting that the war in Americas would favor Brazil, it reminds me of Mussolini's claims (not the Il Pope version of him, but the Il Duce one). If only objective reality was always what we wanted it to be...

 

[EQandcivfanatic]

Since no one else has offered to do this in the discussions, some quick diplomacy.

To: Normandy, Burgundy, Germany, Netherlands, Flanders, Occitania, Poitou, Orleans, Brittany
From: Dauphine

As we exist in an insecure and threatening world, we would like to propose a mutually defensive arrangement under the following terms:

1. All participant states recognize the legitimacy and borders of all other participant states excepting areas where plebiscites apply under the treaties which ended the Rhine-Rhone War.

2. All participant state agree that an attack on one member state is an attack on all. This does not apply to attacks on colonial holdings by other colonial powers or intervention in internal unrest.

3. Members are exempt from involvement if the other member state is the aggressor nation in the conflict.


The NPC Responses

Netherlands accepts the proposal should Germany accept it.

Flanders accepts the proposal wholeheartedly.

Brittany refuses involvement in the said proposal.

Poitou accepts the proposal.