Capto Iugulum Background Thread

[J.K. Stockholme]

EP/MP is a bad measure of wealth for several reasons. EP does not equal gross domestic product, and MP is only the available military population, not the actual population of the nation. Thus, a nation might have a glut of military aged males, due to not having most of them killed in a recent war, or they might have a government that acquires very little tax income from its population, for varying reasons. This hypothetical nation has high MP and low EP, which would make it look bad, while the actual wealth of the population could conceivably be much higher. Also, EP says nothing about wealth distribution, which is important when consider how 'poor' a nation is.

I don't think EP is revenue from taxes. Prosperity seems to be directly linked to higher EP, so I would actually say it is very much like GDP. Find a prosperous nation with poor EP in this game, that is to say, a country with nothing to spend, but immense economic influence, and you'll probably only have found the exception. Though I don't think they exist.

MP is though, not so great for anything. The reason I for one bothered at all to note the economic points in Europe in my map was because we have hit a particularly peaceful little moment. This would mean manpower and EP should be, shall we say, gravitating to their "natural" state. So the EP/MP measure could have the tiniest shred of value.

@Jehoshua: regarding Sardinia, I would argue its not even a strange instance; that country has been rather brutally economizing its tiny island state for as long as I've known. They're the model economy for extremely efficient use of land. So their high EP to MP is actually a good indicator of their prosperity, I think.

 

[Jehoshua]

@Jehoshua: regarding Sardinia, I would argue its not even a strange instance; that country has been rather brutally economizing its tiny island state for as long as I've known. They're the model economy for extremely efficient use of land. So their high EP to MP is actually a good indicator of their prosperity, I think.

It is true that they've been economising very efficiently, but what Im looking at is the fact that over two thirds of their working male population is in the military, and yet despite this they still gain over 2 EP for every working male. Even if your land use is efficient this would be impossible unless there is something outside of the purview of a simple MP/EP ratio applying here, be it high taxes, a high proportion of wealthy foreign immigrants enjoying the sardinian sun in their off time, or some other factor.

 

[Grandkhan]

The problem there is that the number of MP in Brigades, ships and planes should be added to total mp.

 

[Jehoshua]

The problem there is that the number of MP in Brigades, ships and planes should be added to total mp.

hmm, I always thought it was a portion of the MP. Ergo the MP included within it the amount of people in the armed forces. Afterall its not like people suddenly cease to be manpower once they join the army.

 

[TheLastJacobite]

I dislike the MP/EP scale as it implies that Russia, which has the largest economy in the world and is the main supplier of consumer goods to Europe, is "poor". That would equate to calling China in OTL "poor".

 

[Lord_Iggy]

On average, Chinese people are less wealthy than the average in Anglo North America and most of Europe. The state of China, however, does have a lot of resources at its disposal, so the state itself isn't poor. That's the thing- poverty at a state level and poverty on an individual level are two often-detached things.

 

[Jehoshua]

Ergo, the people are poor, but because the nation is so large and populous the state is rich simply due to its sheer size. A billion serfs contributing two dollars a day to the state, is still more than 200 million contributing four dollars. Even though the latter are twice as rich as the billion as individuals, the larger state still has more money available from its improverished masses.

 

[Nuka-sama]

I dislike the MP/EP scale as it implies that Russia, which has the largest economy in the world and is the main supplier of consumer goods to Europe, is "poor". That would equate to calling China in OTL "poor".

The EP to MP ratio is not at ALL about the state. The Russian state is one of the richest economies, yet your people themselves are one of the poorest in the world

 

[Crezth]

See the thing I dont like about all this butt hurt about the EP to MP scale is that this is the ONLY reliable money and population indicator we have.

I'm tempted to agree with you but I would like to take the opportunity to point out how busted the EP and MP system is. :grumble:

I mean, to tell me that Russia, Japan, Germany, and the UK all conveniently extract about the same amount of wealth from their very different economies is... simplistic, at best.

I've always been in favor of a more detailed system but I'm not the guy who has run several successful NESes so what do I know.

 

[Azale]

You could have economic doctrines just as you have army doctrines. Difference being you would not spend EP to switch (in the same way), and you would need a good IC reason to switch.

Elaborating on how EP would be spent on economic doctrines: you spend to upgrade VERTICALLY, from like "feudalistic" (to be ultra simplistic) to "capitalist" or whatever. You would not necessarily spend EP to switch from "laissez faire" to "planned economy."

Just an idea!

 

[Luckymoose]

We had economic doctrines in TWTUD, I think, but I don't recall that going all that well. And I believe the original stats for CIEN had tax rates.


EDIT: Also, Japan is impossibly rich by any and all stretches of historical plausibility.

 

[EQandcivfanatic]

The EP system is admittedly a very simple mechanic for a large number of very complex ideas and developments. I could (and have) create a very detailed model for the economy which reflects private ownership, taxation, currency, stock exchanges, and so on and so forth. I could also do something like Azale detailed, which is actually not far off from a ruleset I intended for ABNW 3. The reasons for this are listed below:

1. Having 40 players fiddling around with all the various options alone would be a massive headache for me. Throwing just as many NPC nations into the mix means that the expansion of time per update would become unacceptable.

2. The current system is simple and easy to explain on the face of it. You get points, you spend points. This allows me to be able to retain complex ideas and situations behind the scenes, while allowing players to have a much simpler approach to the NES. Furthermore, it allows more freedom on behalf of the player, allowing them to choose their own time commitment to the NES. It's just not fair to force a certain level of participation upon all players. Players should be able to reduce the amount of time they spend working on orders for this NES, after all, real life happens. With the EP system, if a player is short on time, they can just send in simple spending orders without having to do a bunch of math. Admittedly, the NES is still weighted in favor of those who DO spend time, but being successful shouldn't be mandatory.

3. The most important reason of all: Coming up with a "perfect" system, especially for economics is an exercise in futility. There'll ALWAYS be some factor overlooked, as economics change. EP as a rough estimate of what a nation can feasibly produce, fund, or design as needed, is a method that more or less works. Sometimes I do have to make adjustments, but overall, the system works as intended, which is more than I can say about many other rulesets (I cringe thinking about the Private/Public/Military economic system from ABNW).


EDIT: While I respect the opinions of others on the plausibility of various economies, I still feel that all the various wealth of the nations we have is suitable, except for Sardinia. I hate those guys.

 

[J.K. Stockholme]

I very much agree with the system, it is the best compromise on simplicity for EQ's reasons. The only thing I get stuck with myself is figuring out how much I need to manually push the economy, like, should I assume companies are expanding in a given sector if I leave it alone? If I do tons of state sponsored projects, will I feel the wrath of a decaying "commanding heights" policy? And then there is debt, which we've sorta gotten into with reparations and a few loans here and there, but very shortly (in our timeline) international loan markets will become pretty crucial to historical developments.

 

[Ahigin]

I'd say MP to EP comparison doesn't represent GDP for one simple reason: manpower is not equal to population. In game terms, manpower is an army pool, which may not always be proportional to population. For example, real-life modern day Israel would have a pretty decent MP for such a small country, all due to specific terms of military service. An example of the opposite would be Nazy Germany in the end of WW2: their manpower pool was effectively empty, because all men capable of carrying arms were already serving in Wehrmacht or Volkssturm. Yet, Germany's population and GDP were comparable to interwar values.

So, all in all, I'd say EP system allows us to approximate GDI but not GDP.

P.S. In case anyone is wondering, I've been following the game for more than half a year by now (and I've read all entries since 1900). I'm a ghost follower, not an active participant.

 

[TheMeanestGuest]

Spryllino's post in the game thread made me feel like I've been lax in my duties. I've read most of the updates, but I have very little understanding of what Septembrist liberalism is. I'd imagine it was best conveyed via in-character posts, but the threads are quite long.

I'd invite anyone who played as the Confederation to better educate me.

 

[J.K. Stockholme]

I'd say MP to EP comparison doesn't represent GDP for one simple reason: manpower is not equal to population. In game terms, manpower is an army pool, which may not always be proportional to population. For example, real-life modern day Israel would have a pretty decent MP for such a small country, all due to specific terms of military service. An example of the opposite would be Nazy Germany in the end of WW2: their manpower pool was effectively empty, because all men capable of carrying arms were already serving in Wehrmacht or Volkssturm. Yet, Germany's population and GDP were comparable to interwar values.

So, all in all, I'd say EP system allows us to approximate GDI but not GDP.

P.S. In case anyone is wondering, I've been following the game for more than half a year by now (and I've read all entries since 1900). I'm a ghost follower, not an active participant.

Welcome to the forums, but may I just say, aren't GDP and GDI the same? The gross domestic income should be exactly equal to the domestic product, as they are expressions of each other in different forms.

@MeanestGuest: I'd like to know as well.

 

[Ahigin]

Welcome to the forums, but may I just say, aren't GDP and GDI the same? The gross domestic income should be exactly equal to the domestic product, as they are expressions of each other in different forms.

Oops, you're right. I should've said "EP system allows us to approximate GDP, not GDI per capita."

 

[Jehoshua]

@Jehoshua: This might be a conversation more suited for the background thread, but could Moralism be applicable in a country with an Anglican-style church (i.e. it retains the hierarchical structure, sacraments, and other select tenets of Catholicism), and could it have a centralizing effect on the power of the monarch, assuming that the monarch is also the head of the church in that country?

Yes, it would be applicable even though anglicanism has a much weaker dogmatic structure (as can be seen by it changing its teaching over the last century in many areas). Particularly as you say if it, and a moral paradigm, were grafted onto the concept of the nations identity.

 

[m.t.cicero]

Thinking of this has also got me wondering about the progression of the Reformation in this TL. France's disunity may have weakened Catholicism in Europe somewhat, though it seems like Spain was also more powerful and even more staunchly Catholic. Also, what kinds of churches developed in the protestant countries? How many are state churches with the monarch at the head vs. more independent sects?

 

[Lord_Iggy]

The Vinlandic Lutheran Church is technically headed by the Monarch of Vinland, although no King or Queen of Vinland has ever taken an active role in this position.