Capto Iugulum Background Thread

Moralism is a dangerous ideology both from the IC perspective of a Revolutionary state and from an OOC perspective. I wouldn't touch that stuff with a ten foot pole in all reality. Admitted, it is not fascism, but fascism has redeeming characteristics (Third Way economic and social policy, etc). Moralism takes all the nationalistic tribe-fighting and warmongering of fascism, with the reactionary social engineering elements and combines it with a sort of haughty religious fanaticism. You've taken everything that was awful about the Falange and the National Socialists and the blackshirts and combined it with everything that's awful about the Roman Catholic Church. :p
 
Moralism cannot trump democracy because Moralism is democracy. Without the vote, Moralism does not exist. The very concept of Moralism is rooted in the need for agency among the people of God. The people must choose it. Brazilian Moralism is a continuation and combination of two sectors of the Brazilian life: liberty and religion.

Moralism is not an ideology founded on warmongering or infringing on civil rights. Moralism is founded on the belief that the people of God are good people, and because of this they will vote in ways that help all other people, regardless of creed, race, sex, etc. It is defensive because it must be. Banning of films from Argentina (which has been lifted with the new copyright laws in place, and I reminded EQ of that in these orders) was more about the theft of property than anything else. Theft is prohibited.

Moralism teaches that charity, both through social programs (as represented in Brazil) and personal exchanges, is the highest form of democracy. All people of the world should be brothers. Damaging products such as alcohol or vulgar media, as seen in Argentina, are harmful to people as a whole. A functioning society with ample education, protection for the incapable and elderly, and stable, efficient government maintaining order is ideal. A free market, guided by the moralist masses to be fair and balanced for all participants (but without the need of control that the absolutists and proletarist force on their poor citizens) is also required for this experiment to work. Moralism is a very bottom-up kind of ideology. If the working class people are healthy and moral, the good times will trickle up.

Moralism is a dangerous ideology both from the IC perspective of a Revolutionary state and from an OOC perspective. I wouldn't touch that stuff with a ten foot pole in all reality. Admitted, it is not fascism, but fascism has redeeming characteristics (Third Way economic and social policy, etc). Moralism takes all the nationalistic tribe-fighting and warmongering of fascism, with the reactionary social engineering elements and combines it with a sort of haughty religious fanaticism. You've taken everything that was awful about the Falange and the National Socialists and the blackshirts and combined it with everything that's awful about the Roman Catholic Church. :p

You clearly know nothing of Moralism or how it works.

Drexlerianism is far more nationalistic than Moralism. Hint: Moralism is anti-nationalist.
 
You clearly know nothing of Moralism or how it works.

Drexlerianism is far more nationalistic than Moralism. Hint: Moralism is anti-nationalist.

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If you want to learn how to run a real dictatorship, we could give you some private lessons :mischief:
 
I have always seen Moralism as the Catholic version of what exists in the Middle East, in Iran and by the Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt (bearing most resemblance to the latter due to existing democratic institutions). The moralists work with the democratic institutions because they are there, but they are not wed to them.
 
I have always seen Moralism as the Catholic version of what exists in the Middle East, in Iran and by the Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt (bearing most resemblance to the latter due to existing democratic institutions). The moralists work with the democratic institutions because they are there, but they are not wed to them.

Moralism is nothing like the Islamist movements. It's almost as if you people don't read.
 
Well, we read Jehoshua's essays on it. That's what we have been basing it on. Thanks for clarifying the Brazilian conception. Don't be afraid to contradict the Pope about what is fundamentally a Brazilian movement. The former government of Chile and current government of Nicaragua are both far from what you just described.

How would Brazilian Moralism be applied to completely Protestant of Muslim nations? Or those with a heterogeneous mixture of religions, like Argentina and others in Europe?
 
Well, we read Jehoshua's essays on it. That's what we have been basing it on. Thanks for clarifying the Brazilian conception. Don't be afraid to contradict the Pope about what is fundamentally a Brazilian movement. The former government of Chile and current government of Nicaragua are both far from what you just described.

How would Brazilian Moralism be applied to completely Protestant of Muslim nations? Or those with a heterogeneous mixture of religions, like Argentina and others in Europe?

Brazil does oppose the Papacy on some of these issues. The Pope is an equal partner in the Moralist International, not a ruling figure. This comes from a long history in CI of South America being rather indifferent to the Papacy. It is a European thing, but we respect the Pope regardless.

Brazil defended Moralism in Nicaragua not because it was the perfect, but because it was there. It could not be allowed to be killed by PADA. It was simple sphere expansion. You have to understand that governments do things for one reason while stating another reason altogether quite frequently.

Protestantism, Greek Orthodoxy, Islam, or Judaism all have fundamental similarities that could be applied to Moralist doctrine. It isn't an ideology that says, "You must be Catholic or else!" Catholicism just happens to be the dominate religion in the nations where this ideology developed and has given it a flavor that favors Catholicism. But true Catholics are no different, traditionally, from the other religions in their views on society and peace and all that spiritual jazz. Christianity is a peaceful religion where respect of your neighbor and acceptance of their flaws is the norm. Democracy is fairly Abrahamic if you break it down and Moralism uses commonality between them to promote moral, healthy societies based on kindness, charity, and cooperation. War is a negative, but defense against the rival ideologies is a must. Proletarism and Absolutism are threats to the entire world and it is a moralist's calling in life to see those resisted, first with words and diplomacy, but then with force as a last resort.

So I'd say, Moralism is easily accepted in nations such as Argentina. Social programs, public works, healthcare, pensions, and education are all fundamental rights in the eyes of Brazilian Moralists. The economy attempts to be as free market as possible, but you have to consider it as a moral capitalism. In this system the people demand protections but it is expected that in an ideal moralist economy the government would not need to interfere as the supplier-consumer relationship would be governed by moral practices. It is a pipe dream, yes, but the government actively works to provide the healthiest and most moral form of society they can within the limits of their power. Drugs and alcohol negatively impact the health and morality of a people and must be culled by the only force that can: government.

It is all rather Christian Utopian, if you want to consider that. It has flaws, but it certainly isn't nationalistic, fascist, racist, sexist, or warmongering.
 
A different flavor of moralist, yes.

But you just implied that democracy was Abrahamic...


Also, my understanding of papal moralism, at least, involves something something moral life has its source in faith in God who reveals his love to us? Something like that, at least.
 
But you just implied that democracy was Abrahamic...


Also, my understanding of papal moralism, at least, involves something something moral life has its source in faith in God who reveals his love to us? Something like that, at least.

I said fairly Abrahamic. You really suck at this. The core principles of democracy are in line with concept of community in Abrahamic religions. I didn't say democracy was a religion. Moralism doesn't require god any more than being a good person does. Are you implying an atheist can't be moral?

I think you're taking your modern, actual worldview and placing it against Moralism, rather than reading it as it is intended. I am not a Moralist in real life.
 
Why have all those complex ideologies when you can just be a military dictatorship? :p
 
Why have all those complex ideologies when you can just be a military dictatorship? :p

Because [INSERT CLEVER REASON REFERENCING CHRISTOS' TRACK RECORD HERE]
 
Well, we read Jehoshua's essays on it. That's what we have been basing it on...

Why is it I have a sneaking suspicion that you're not understanding my essays on moralism (which are relatively few [that moralist doctrine of Paul VI being the only one I can think of on the top of my head atm that is explicitly about moralism, most of them of my works are contra-liberalism/proletarism essays, or on religious stuff).

The only real differences between how the papacy thinks moralism should develop (one must recognise the papacy is not moralist itself) and what Lucky has said is that the papacy is less socialistic (it thinks welfare should be more a product of local communities and charity as an expression of Christian love, rather than being a less personal institution of the state) and it upholds that a perfect society is impossible on earth (since human nature is wounded) and thus society must orient itself to objective truth (the divine law) and establish these truths as inalienable and inalterable values within the nation, to ensure the defence of the right and good, and the beautiful against the evil. Ergo, it rejects that moral truths are determinable by popular vote.
 
@Jehoshua: and "Papal moralism" is Catholic, and only Catholic, whereas Lucky seems to think Moralism can be applied to any religion.
 
@Jehoshua: and "Papal moralism" is Catholic, and only Catholic, whereas Lucky seems to think Moralism can be applied to any religion.

Pretty sure I know what my own ideology is about. Papal Moralism isn't even moralism, it is just Catholicism. Moralism as it stands is solidly Catholic and thus the two parties work together for the common good. I wouldn't call the Pope a moralist, though.
 
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