Catalonia to vote on independence 9/11/2014

[Prima Italia]

Spanish Prime Minister Mariano Rajoy is to visit Barcelona on Sunday. Barcelona mayoress Ada Calau said that the pro-indepedence parties had tricked the population for their own agenda. "They've provoked tensions and carried out a unilateral independence declaration which the majority do not want" she told her leftist party.

 

[Kyriakos]

Well, now you see the crows coming out, having smelled the blood. It is farcical to have a piece of trash like Rajoy being invited like some hero

And the catalans only have their own gov to blame for this ridiculous ending. In retrospect, one phone call by the eu was all it took to 'cease all motor functions'

 

[JohannaK]

Having been invited like some hero? He's visiting to support his party's candidate, who will most likely come in 5th again.

 

[SebastianAllen43]

I just hope an all out civil war doesn't break out. I can see why Spain doesn't want to lose the territory, but the people have spoken and made their wishes clear.

 

[Verbose]

I just hope an all out civil war doesn't break out. I can see why Spain doesn't want to lose the territory, but the people have spoken and made their wishes clear.

Considering there's been no violence initiated from the idependentist side — even if it seems the leadership will now be tried as if this had been a violent uprising of some kind — that seems rather unlikely. It needs the Spanish government to start that by the look of things. And it's not as daft as all that. Especially since it's not necessary.

Possibly the Spanish courts will acquit the Catalan leadership too. Which would prove Spain's status as a rule-of-law liberal democracy. Exactly why the executive power wants to be seen as vindictive is rather more political than legal — which is why it's a bad idea for it to plant itself on a simply legalistic basis in relating to the Catalans, and in the process at least attempt to politicize the Spanish legal system as well. Which is why the Spanish courts had better resist this.

 

[luiz]

Considering there's been no violence initiated from the idependentist side — even if it seems the leadership will now be tried as if this had been a violent uprising of some kind — that seems rather unlikely. It needs the Spanish government to start that by the look of things. And it's not as daft as all that. Especially since it's not necessary.

Possibly the Spanish courts will acquit the Catalan leadership too. Which would prove Spain's status as a rule-of-law liberal democracy. Exactly why the executive power wants to be seen as vindictive is rather more political than legal — which is why it's a bad idea for it to plant itself on a simply legalistic basis in relating to the Catalans, and in the process at least attempt to politicize the Spanish legal system as well. Which is why the Spanish courts had better resist this.

Actually the Spanish executive is pressing the courts to release the jailed Catalans to allow them to campaign freely before the December elections.

So there is indeed pressure from the executive over the courts, and one could even argue that it's wrong. But it's on the opposite direction that you think. Rajoy wants the secessionists free, it's the law that mandates they be arrested.

 

[Verbose]

Actually the Spanish executive is pressing the courts to release the jailed Catalans to allow them to campaign freely before the December elections.

So there is indeed pressure from the executive over the courts, and one could even argue that it's wrong. But it's on the opposite direction that you think. Rajoy wants the secessionists free, it's the law that mandates they be arrested.

I stand corrected. That's positive.

The problem is still a problem of relative legitimacy in Catalonia. I just had too much faith in the Spanish legal system then? Something is out of whack, and laws aren't just, simply by being in effect.

 

[Hrothbern]

I stand corrected. That's positive.

The problem is still a problem of relative legitimacy in Catalonia. I just had too much faith in the Spanish legal system then? Something is out of whack, and laws aren't just, simply by being in effect.

Democracy is just the fluid instant of counting the noses
at her worst the tyranny of the majority, whether of Spain or an area like Catalonia TBH
It is typical the judicial system, that incorporates moral and traditional values, which can vary greatly between nations in her capability to be tolerant and welcoming people with different convictions and interests. Having a quality instead of the binary election vote.
In effect trying to reflect the majority of many generations that were, and many generations to be
And as such should be tolerant.
Not every country has that, or has a long history of varying priorities behind her in a democratic tradition, whether formalised or not, not every country lives it. Both politicians as people.

 

[Arwon]

Ironically, oppressive Spain has allowed the Catalan secessionist elites that control the regional political machine to build an extremely biased system that severely under represents Barcelona in favor or more pro-secession regions. Indeed, Barcelona has 14 fewer seats than it should have if in Catalonia all votes were equal. And if all votes were equal, there would have been no secessionist majority last time around to begin with. So secessionists only had the large majority they did because they stacked the odds heavily in their favor.

As we can see, even voting is not that simple. Reality is always more complicated.

This looks like it was established in 1979 and those numbers were used in 1980. Which probably predates organised secessionism by quite some time given Pujol and the CiU were traditionally federalists, not seperatists. There's no doubt that the nationalists are benefiting from the rural malapportionment now given Barcelona is their weakest province, but they don't appear to have created it. I doubt the CiU and ERC wrote that statute by themselves, it was likely heavily influenced by the socialists and the old UCD (effectively the PP's predecessor).

In this case it would be another example of the rural malapportionment that was baked into Spain as a whole in the creation of a post-Franco electoral system (every province getting 2 seats plus population).

Looking at the results in 1980, the most likely rationale for malapportionment (if there was a rationale as opposed to some more abstract pro-rural logic) was probably anti-communist, since the Communists did best in Barcelona (20% vs 10% in the other three). They were the controversial factor back then, legalising them was not a foregone conclusion during the transition, and to my knowledge the national level malapportionment was primarily anticommunist in design.

 

[red_elk]

750k protesters
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...elease-of-jailed-catalan-independence-leaders

That's an order of magnitude more massive than Ukrainian protests which forced Yanukovich to flee the country. Ukrainian ones were much more violent though.

 

[JohannaK]

This is the third demonstration of this magnitude in two months, plus a few more half the size (two of the latter being unionist).

 

[Kyriakos]

750k protesters
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...elease-of-jailed-catalan-independence-leaders

That's an order of magnitude more massive than Ukrainian protests which forced Yanukovich to flee the country. Ukrainian ones were much more violent though.

And even had a working Trebuchet

 

[red_elk]

Yeah, trebuchets and saucepan helmets were funny, until molotov cocktails come into the scene. Then it wasn't funny anymore.

Edit: Just in case, I'm not suggesting violence from either side as a solution to Catalan protests.

 

[Akka]

I just hope an all out civil war doesn't break out. I can see why Spain doesn't want to lose the territory, but the people have spoken and made their wishes clear.

Once again, people in this thread seems to live in some sort of alternate reality where Catalonia is oppressed and has 90 % of its population supporting secession.
Both being false.
"People have spoken" and the issue is divisive and without a substancial majority either way in Catalonia proper, and even it there were a clear majority, it still lacks legitimacy to be able to ignore the opinion of the rest of Spain.

 

[uppi]

Rajoy wants the secessionists free, it's the law that mandates they be arrested.

Arrested, maybe. Charged with rebellion, I don't think so. Rajoy may not want it, but there seem to be some (maybe overzealous) elements in the Spanish legal system that lean towards political oppression.

Once again, people in this thread seems to live in some sort of alternate reality where Catalonia is oppressed and has 90 % of its population supporting secession.
Both being false.

I agree that it is not fair to call Catalonia oppressed, but it is not like the Spanish state has been acting as a beacon for liberty, either. Some of the moves of the Spanish government were way to oppressive for my taste.

"People have spoken" and the issue is divisive and without a substancial majority either way in Catalonia proper, and even it there were a clear majority, it still lacks legitimacy to be able to ignore the opinion of the rest of Spain.

There is no clear legitimacy for outright secession, but there is enough legitimacy for the current state of affairs being unacceptable.

 

[innonimatu]

This has dropped from the news, but the trial of the political prisioners from Catalonia is still ongoing in Spain:

The trial of a dozen leading Catalan politicians in Madrid on charges of rebellion isn’t something you expect to see in a functioning European democracy. The events of fall 2017 weren’t a rebellion in the ordinary sense of the word. It was nonviolent political grandstanding that the Spanish state easily shut down. The effort shouldn’t have succeeded, but it also shouldn’t be harshly criminalized.
...
In essence, the Spanish government is acting as though the Catalan leaders staged a coup. When that happens, trials and harsh sentences typically follow.
Look at Turkey, where the government is holding mass trials and convicting hundreds of defendants at a time in response to the 2016 coup attempt against Recep Tayyip Erdogan.
Although the Catalan leaders defied the Spanish Constitution, they didn’t take violent steps to replace the government. The public protests don’t bear any resemblance to a coup. The Catalan leaders didn’t try to gather military forces of their own.

Nothing to see there of course, Spain is a bona-fide democracy...

 

[JohannaK]

It started just yesterday. It is slated to end right before the May elections, though Sanchez is threstening to call for a genersl election in April if he cant get his budget passed.

 

[Silurian]

There was a long piece in the Observer that I read in the pub on Sunday, about the fall of Catalonia to Franco, and how some of the refugees never returned.

It is 80 years since one of Europe’s worst – and least known – refugee crises, but memories of the Retirada (or withdrawal) are still vivid for Madeleine Morena. Her family were among 500,000 Spaniards who fled across the eastern Pyrenees to France when Barcelona fell to Franco’s forces near the end of the Spanish civil war on 26 January 1939, triggering one of the greatest exoduses of modern times.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/feb/09/franco-spain-refugees-haunted-by-the-past-retirada

 

[Thorgalaeg]

The fall of Catalonia to Franco? The fall of Barcelona you mean. Madrid resisted a month more, btw.

 

[Prima Italia]

You reap what you sow. They were defiant in the face of the Spanish Constitution and now they have to face consequences. What have they wrought? Nothing but cause chaos. I hope they get above the maximum penalty.