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Catalonia to vote on independence 9/11/2014

Discussion in 'Off-Topic' started by JohannaK, Dec 14, 2013.

  1. Prima Italia

    Prima Italia Chieftain

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    Spanish Prime Minister Mariano Rajoy is to visit Barcelona on Sunday. Barcelona mayoress Ada Calau said that the pro-indepedence parties had tricked the population for their own agenda. "They've provoked tensions and carried out a unilateral independence declaration which the majority do not want" she told her leftist party.
     
  2. Kyriakos

    Kyriakos Alien spiral maker

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    Well, now you see the crows coming out, having smelled the blood. It is farcical to have a piece of trash like Rajoy being invited like some hero :lol:

    And the catalans only have their own gov to blame for this ridiculous ending. In retrospect, one phone call by the eu was all it took to 'cease all motor functions' :shake:
     
  3. JohannaK

    JohannaK Heroically Clueless

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    Having been invited like some hero? He's visiting to support his party's candidate, who will most likely come in 5th again.
     
  4. SebastianAllen43

    SebastianAllen43 Chieftain

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    I just hope an all out civil war doesn't break out. I can see why Spain doesn't want to lose the territory, but the people have spoken and made their wishes clear.
     
  5. Verbose

    Verbose Deity

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    Considering there's been no violence initiated from the idependentist side — even if it seems the leadership will now be tried as if this had been a violent uprising of some kind — that seems rather unlikely. It needs the Spanish government to start that by the look of things. And it's not as daft as all that. Especially since it's not necessary.

    Possibly the Spanish courts will acquit the Catalan leadership too. Which would prove Spain's status as a rule-of-law liberal democracy. Exactly why the executive power wants to be seen as vindictive is rather more political than legal — which is why it's a bad idea for it to plant itself on a simply legalistic basis in relating to the Catalans, and in the process at least attempt to politicize the Spanish legal system as well. Which is why the Spanish courts had better resist this.
     
  6. luiz

    luiz Trendy Revolutionary

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    Actually the Spanish executive is pressing the courts to release the jailed Catalans to allow them to campaign freely before the December elections.

    So there is indeed pressure from the executive over the courts, and one could even argue that it's wrong. But it's on the opposite direction that you think. Rajoy wants the secessionists free, it's the law that mandates they be arrested.
     
  7. Verbose

    Verbose Deity

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    I stand corrected. That's positive.

    The problem is still a problem of relative legitimacy in Catalonia. I just had too much faith in the Spanish legal system then? Something is out of whack, and laws aren't just, simply by being in effect.
     
  8. Hrothbern

    Hrothbern Deity

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    Democracy is just the fluid instant of counting the noses
    at her worst the tyranny of the majority, whether of Spain or an area like Catalonia TBH
    It is typical the judicial system, that incorporates moral and traditional values, which can vary greatly between nations in her capability to be tolerant and welcoming people with different convictions and interests. Having a quality instead of the binary election vote.
    In effect trying to reflect the majority of many generations that were, and many generations to be
    And as such should be tolerant.
    Not every country has that, or has a long history of varying priorities behind her in a democratic tradition, whether formalised or not, not every country lives it. Both politicians as people.
     
  9. Arwon

    Arwon

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    This looks like it was established in 1979 and those numbers were used in 1980. Which probably predates organised secessionism by quite some time given Pujol and the CiU were traditionally federalists, not seperatists. There's no doubt that the nationalists are benefiting from the rural malapportionment now given Barcelona is their weakest province, but they don't appear to have created it. I doubt the CiU and ERC wrote that statute by themselves, it was likely heavily influenced by the socialists and the old UCD (effectively the PP's predecessor).

    In this case it would be another example of the rural malapportionment that was baked into Spain as a whole in the creation of a post-Franco electoral system (every province getting 2 seats plus population).

    Looking at the results in 1980, the most likely rationale for malapportionment (if there was a rationale as opposed to some more abstract pro-rural logic) was probably anti-communist, since the Communists did best in Barcelona (20% vs 10% in the other three). They were the controversial factor back then, legalising them was not a foregone conclusion during the transition, and to my knowledge the national level malapportionment was primarily anticommunist in design.
     
    Last edited: Nov 12, 2017
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  10. red_elk

    red_elk Deity

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  11. JohannaK

    JohannaK Heroically Clueless

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    This is the third demonstration of this magnitude in two months, plus a few more half the size (two of the latter being unionist).
     
  12. Kyriakos

    Kyriakos Alien spiral maker

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  13. red_elk

    red_elk Deity

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    Yeah, trebuchets and saucepan helmets were funny, until molotov cocktails come into the scene. Then it wasn't funny anymore.

    Edit: Just in case, I'm not suggesting violence from either side as a solution to Catalan protests.
     
  14. Akka

    Akka Moody old mage.

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    Once again, people in this thread seems to live in some sort of alternate reality where Catalonia is oppressed and has 90 % of its population supporting secession.
    Both being false.
    "People have spoken" and the issue is divisive and without a substancial majority either way in Catalonia proper, and even it there were a clear majority, it still lacks legitimacy to be able to ignore the opinion of the rest of Spain.
     
  15. uppi

    uppi Deity

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    Arrested, maybe. Charged with rebellion, I don't think so. Rajoy may not want it, but there seem to be some (maybe overzealous) elements in the Spanish legal system that lean towards political oppression.

    I agree that it is not fair to call Catalonia oppressed, but it is not like the Spanish state has been acting as a beacon for liberty, either. Some of the moves of the Spanish government were way to oppressive for my taste.

    There is no clear legitimacy for outright secession, but there is enough legitimacy for the current state of affairs being unacceptable.
     
  16. innonimatu

    innonimatu Deity

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    This has dropped from the news, but the trial of the political prisioners from Catalonia is still ongoing in Spain:

    Nothing to see there of course, Spain is a bona-fide democracy...
     
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  17. JohannaK

    JohannaK Heroically Clueless

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    It started just yesterday. It is slated to end right before the May elections, though Sanchez is threstening to call for a genersl election in April if he cant get his budget passed.
     
  18. Silurian

    Silurian Deity

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    There was a long piece in the Observer that I read in the pub on Sunday, about the fall of Catalonia to Franco, and how some of the refugees never returned.

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/feb/09/franco-spain-refugees-haunted-by-the-past-retirada
     
  19. Thorgalaeg

    Thorgalaeg Deity

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    The fall of Catalonia to Franco? The fall of Barcelona you mean. Madrid resisted a month more, btw.
     
  20. Prima Italia

    Prima Italia Chieftain

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    You reap what you sow. They were defiant in the face of the Spanish Constitution and now they have to face consequences. What have they wrought? Nothing but cause chaos. I hope they get above the maximum penalty.
     

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