China Successfully Crushes All Dissent

You're confusing market, and state. Which might be deliberate on your part.
I'm not confusing anything. In the end, if somebody can't get a loan, he wouldn't care whether he was blacklisted by banks or by state. The end result is the same.

The Social Credit System will be based in a large part on Sesame Credit, and Sesame Credit does ding people's score for playing video games 10 hours a day.
As far as I understand, Alibaba is a e-commerce company and they can judge only by products the person is buying online. Playing 10 hours a day was obviously given as example of idle person, they cannot track such things directly.
 
The funniest thing about this thread is that events in China are being portrayed as the downfall of liberty. I don't recall China ever being viewed as the bellwether of democracy. If they improve a bit, or slide back a bit, does that really make a big difference for this issue? At this particular moment in history, when what has supposedly been the "light of democracy to the world" seems to be reversing course and begging for authoritarian rule to supplant their institutions does a country as far down the ranks as China really merit a lot of hand wringing?
China has been authoritarian for a long time, but it's good to remember and put things in perspective.
Between all the relativism, more or less deliberate attempt at blurring the lines, focus on home policies (which are obviously more important for a local, but also often make people goes "grass is greener elsewhere"), the weird "positive perception" when a known "bad" government does something responsible (China looks better than the US about ecology for example), we get to a point where the "bad" is so much in the background it doesn't really register. It pays to remember why it does exist to begin with.

When you see clowns claiming that Assad has a better human right record than Israel, you know it's not redundant to get the head of people out of their butt and look again at what really are authoritarian regimes.
Especially as technology is giving more and more tools which makes an actualy dystopian tyranny more and more possible by the year.
 
This would seem to assume this system is going to be enforced by humans. THAT is not a given anymore.
YouTube has spent the last six months trying to sell me a genetic analysing machine which I couldn't explain, let alone afford. The Rise of the Algorithms has yet to prove itself a dystopia worth waiting for.
 
YouTube has spent the last six months trying to sell me a genetic analysing machine which I couldn't explain, let alone afford. The Rise of the Algorithms has yet to prove itself a dystopia worth waiting for.
> has email conversation with (out) lesbian cousin who moved to Korea to teach
> gets advertisements for "lonely Asian singles in [your] area" and "local hunky gay men"

Expertly targeted!

...of course, the fact that an algorithm-run dystopia would be deeply inaccurate wouldn't make it any less scary. Quite the opposite, I think.
 
Your score is lowered for bad driving? Must refrain from making Asian (East) drivers joke.

If it didn't happen with Tienamen Square, it's not going to happen. Their government is here to stay. And honestly, things are so good over there, you can't expect the populace would complain at this point. They are on the way up while the U.S. is on the way down. In 20 years you could maybe even say China was the ultimate winner of the Cold War.
 
YouTube has spent the last six months trying to sell me a genetic analysing machine which I couldn't explain, let alone afford. The Rise of the Algorithms has yet to prove itself a dystopia worth waiting for.

...of course, the fact that an algorithm-run dystopia would be deeply inaccurate wouldn't make it any less scary. Quite the opposite, I think.

There seems to be this weird belief that algorithms are not allowed to make mistakes. This slows down adoption, because being as good as a human is not good enough. But once it has been adopted, the results are usually accepted without question. So the dystopia might take some time to materialize, but that will just make it worse.


Fittingly, the add displayed below as I type this is for the company I work for. Yes, I may have some interest in that company, but not because I want to buy anything.
 
> has email conversation with (out) lesbian cousin who moved to Korea to teach
> gets advertisements for "lonely Asian singles in [your] area" and "local hunky gay men"

Expertly targeted!
Google search auto-completion sometimes freaks me out.
 
There seems to be this weird belief that algorithms are not allowed to make mistakes. This slows down adoption, because being as good as a human is not good enough. But once it has been adopted, the results are usually accepted without question. So the dystopia might take some time to materialize, but that will just make it worse.
Algorithms don't make mistakes, though. Algorithms do exactly what they are told. What the algorithm is told may not be what the person who built them meant, and it may not produce the outcome they expected, but the algorithm has clean hands. The question is then what they are built for and how well they fulfill that role, and when the biggest corporations in the world can't even figure out how to target its advertising effectively, it's far from obvious that a regime as fractious and corrupt as that of the PRC is going to muster the focus and resources to construct any sort of effective digital Stasi, however long it takes them to get there. It's not just case of designing the right algorithm, it's a case of getting enough people to agree on what "right" means, and on providing the resources to build, deploy and maintain it, and that seems like a pretty big ask for a country where the government maintains a separate, secondary army because it doesn't trust the main army.

Again, recall that the OP mentions that the PRC maintains large-scale prison camps for political dissidents. That is what an authoritarian regime looks like. That is weaponised modernity. That's what the whole system is based upon, the ability of the state to exercise effective power, and the more absurd and unachievable the claims to power the state makes, the more feeble it looks to an observant populace. "Algorithms" isn't a get-out-of-jail-free card for political impotence. All they offer is a potentially more efficient way for the state to decide where to deploy its power, but it can't deploy power it hasn't got. No algorithm in the world can force people to eat lunch.

I should clarify, I'm not saying that China is an authoritarian regime, or even that it's not an effective one. I'm with Tim in thinking that this was self-evident, and being a bit baffled as to why this collection of absurd laws and half-tested widgets should prompt any particular surprise or horror. What they suggest to me is a regime struggling to maintain the reigns on power, which lacks a Western confidence in its own certain existence and must go through elaborate motions to convince people that it's still in charge, rather than a regime climbing to new heights of authority.
 
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The targeting is effective enough to be worth it to most businesses, even if you don't personally see it. And that's given that private companies don't necessarily have a complete data set of all aspects of your life. PRC has already secured the cooperation of its local internet monoliths and even Western companies with branches in China that will allow it to easily pool all this data. You can say NSA/GCHQ do this already, but compared to the proposed 2020 system they have a comparatively light touch in regards to domestic surveillance and on your personal life so far. That these technologies will be easily exportable is my main concern. We'll see by 2025.
 
What they suggest to me is a regime struggling to maintain the reigns on power,

What struggle? Nobody is threatening their power.


which lacks a Western confidence in its own certain existence

I do not agree. China is an old civilisation and it is very confident now that it has technically modernised.


The targeting is effective enough to be worth it to most businesses, even if you don't personally see it. And that's given that private companies don't necessarily have a complete data set of all aspects of your life. PRC has already secured the cooperation of its local internet monoliths and even Western companies with branches in China that will allow it to easily pool all this data. You can say NSA/GCHQ do this already, but compared to the proposed 2020 system they have a comparatively light touch in regards to domestic surveillance and on your personal life so far. That these technologies will be easily exportable is my main concern. We'll see by 2025.


It seems to me that it is all about extending and intensifying their power.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nineteen_Eighty-Four

Yours from Oceania
 
Algorithms don't make mistakes, though. Algorithms do exactly what they are told. What the algorithm is told may not be what the person who built them meant, and it may not produce the outcome they expected, but the algorithm has clean hands.

This is true of the abstract algorithm of course, but in reality we are always talking about a system with input and output and a certain purpose, which can fail to achieve this purpose. That people mentally transfer the properties of the abstract algorithm to the system (badly) implementing that algorithm is part of the problem.

The question is then what they are built for and how well they fulfill that role, and when the biggest corporations in the world can't even figure out how to target its advertising effectively, it's far from obvious that a regime as fractious and corrupt as that of the PRC is going to muster the focus and resources to construct any sort of effective digital Stasi, however long it takes them to get there. It's not just case of designing the right algorithm, it's a case of getting enough people to agree on what "right" means, and on providing the resources to build, deploy and maintain it, and that seems like a pretty big ask for a country where the government maintains a separate, secondary army because it doesn't trust the main army.

I disagree that these corporations cannot figure out effective targeting. Despite all the comical misclassifications, the targeting seems to be better than random and effective enough, that advertisers are willing to pay billions of dollars for it. It doesn't need to be perfect, it just needs to be good enough that enough people believe in it.

The one algorithm to rule them all is certainly science-fiction, but that doesn't mean that algorithms will not be used for represssion or that they aren't used for repression already. With the internet censorship going on China, I would be surprised if they didn't already have an algorithm that classifies the political content of internet postings. Such algorithms are not perfect and you will always find examples where they fail, but it is better than random guessing. From this they could generate a political reliability score and once they have that, they could let the score influence many decisions. E.g. those that have a score lower than the 5%-quantile will not even be considered for university and if everything is equal for all other applicants, the score is used as tiebreaker.

Again, recall that the OP mentions that the PRC maintains large-scale prison camps for political dissidents. That is what an authoritarian regime looks like. That is weaponised modernity. That's what the whole system is based upon, the ability of the state to exercise effective power, and the more absurd and unachievable the claims to power the state makes, the more feeble it looks to an observant populace. "Algorithms" isn't a get-out-of-jail-free card for political impotence. All they offer is a potentially more efficient way for the state to decide where to deploy its power, but it can't deploy power it hasn't got. No algorithm in the world can force people to eat lunch.

Algorithms wield some power of their own. Credit scores are algorithms that cannot force you to pay your bills on time -- that takes a court decision and law enforcement. But they can encourage you to do so to avoid potential repercussions in the future, when you could be denied services. This is enough to keep many people in line without having to wield the power of the legal system. In the same way, if people believe that their actions are monitored and that they flow into some kind of algorithm that may have consequences in the future, they might behave in a way that avoids getting on the bad side of that system. To be effective, the system doesn't even need to be accurrate, people just need to think it is accurate enough. Of course, there will be always people, who see right through that, but for those you can apply more "traditional" repression.


I should clarify, I'm not saying that China is an authoritarian regime, or even that it's not an effective one. I'm with Tim in thinking that this was self-evident, and being a bit baffled as to why this collection of absurd laws and half-tested widgets should prompt any particular surprise or horror. What they suggest to me is a regime struggling to maintain the reigns on power, which lacks a Western confidence in its own certain existence and must go through elaborate motions to convince people that it's still in charge, rather than a regime climbing to new heights of authority.

I agree that this is a part of what China is doing. But there is also the fact that it is now possible to collect data on a scale that the Stasi wouldn't have been able to imagine in their wet dreams. China is at the forefront to utilize that for political control. Time will tell, whether this will lead to a much stricter control of the population, whether the repression will stay on the same level, but require less resources or whether the system will implode at one point, because it cannot maintain the illusion of control.
 
Regarding the Chinese system I'd guess that a lot depends upon the configuration direction.

If party officials or police can simply use it to down mark people arbitrarily,
it will encourage a dangerous combination of intimidated conformity and corruption.

If Wang public can report on the performances of party officials and police it could be very positive.
 
Personally I see less difference between "the Chinese Communist Party" is using all your data to manipulate you and "Facebook, Twitter, etc are using all your data to manipulate you" than OP seems to :dunno:
 
I don't know, I kind of feel like there's a massive difference between being sold things you don't need and potentially being made a second-class citizen if you don't fall in line.
 
So lets imagine for a moment that this works as a charm and everyone in China is happy, should our governments start thinking on applying it or are the fundamental rights written down in our western constitutions of some natural value which can't be ignored?
 
YouTube has spent the last six months trying to sell me a genetic analysing machine which I couldn't explain, let alone afford. The Rise of the Algorithms has yet to prove itself a dystopia worth waiting for.
YouTube wants to sell you things here. The CCP wants to regulate your behavior for its own interests in a much more profound way.

The CCP deciding the algorithms already do a decent enough job would seem to be sufficient.

You will get digital idiocy without recourse to even human, personal, venality as part of an impersonal control on behalf of the Party.

The problem is that we need the state to protect individual freedoms and liberties. A state like the current Chinese has no interest in that. Marry that tendency with a wish to combat fx corruption through impersonal algorithm based systems rather than corrupt humanity, and we get something that I feel concern about. Though you might not?
 
So lets imagine for a moment that this works as a charm and everyone in China is happy, should our governments start thinking on applying it or are the fundamental rights written down in our western constitutions of some natural value which can't be ignored?
China creating successful society without adopting fundamental Western values?
What a blasphemous idea, how could you even think about that?
 
Personally I see less difference between "the Chinese Communist Party" is using all your data to manipulate you and "Facebook, Twitter, etc are using all your data to manipulate you" than OP seems to :dunno:
Your freedoms and rights as a citizen aren't maintained by Zuckerberg et al. (Though Zuckerberg's appearance before the US congress would seem to indicate in the US this might make less of a difference than it does in the EU fx.)

A Chinese citizen is in that situation. And in some cases non-Chinese citizens are already being subjected to the ministrations of the Chinese state.
 
What struggle? Nobody is threatening their power.
The absence of a rebel column hammering on the palace gates doesn't indicate that a regime is absolutely secure in its power. The leadership are at odds with sectional and regional factions, the state is at odds with the military, the reformists are at odds with the Maoists, they're all at odds with the populace. The leadership would be tremendously stupid to assume that they were the natural inheritors of a thousand-year empire, just because they get to sit behind the biggest desks. The fact that they pursue on so many draconian policies suggests that they're very much aware of this.

I do not agree. China is an old civilisation and it is very confident now that it has technically modernised.
I'm talking about "China", as a grand historical abstraction. I'm talking about the leadership of the Communist Party regime. I'm not really interested in the imagined qualities of some intangible civilisation-ghost.

Consider that China, as a "civilisation", wasn't much less old in 1918. Would we have looked at the warlord cliques scrapping over the corpse of the republic-that-wasn't and pronounce "yes, here is a civilisation confident in its ancient station"? Probs not.

YouTube wants to sell you things here. The CCP wants to regulate your behavior for its own interests in a much more profound way.
That's entirely my point. If the most advance advertising algorithms in the world end up trying to sell me patio doors for my rented, second-story flat, why should we expect that the PRC are capable of producing far more detailed and more sophisticated algorithms, and then acting upon those algorithms in an effective way?

The difference, I'll grant, is that the PRC may be in a position to collect more sweeping information, but it doesn't follow that they're better positioned to act on it. If algorithms see a YouTube history of music videos, movie reviews and clips from the John Adams miniseries and go "here is a guy who wants to play a lot of online bingo", then it's not obvious that they'd get much more practical usage out of my age, religion, or political affiliation.

If I even reported those things accurately or consistently; as a paper of record has observed, people are really pretty awful at self-reportage.

The one algorithm to rule them all is certainly science-fiction, but that doesn't mean that algorithms will not be used for represssion or that they aren't used for repression already. With the internet censorship going on China, I would be surprised if they didn't already have an algorithm that classifies the political content of internet postings. Such algorithms are not perfect and you will always find examples where they fail, but it is better than random guessing. From this they could generate a political reliability score and once they have that, they could let the score influence many decisions. E.g. those that have a score lower than the 5%-quantile will not even be considered for university and if everything is equal for all other applicants, the score is used as tiebreaker.
What does this describe, the automation of how authoritarian regimes already operate? There's no fundamental shift, here, just the ability for the state to shift manpower to other tasks. There's not even a guarantee that the algorithm is more effective than manual review, only the expectation that the savings in manpower would outweigh the costs of a less efficient system.

Digital automation is rarely more efficient in itself, only more cost-effective. It's more likely that any serious move towards "social credit" is understood by the leadership as the modernisation of the existing surveillance-state rather than something fundamentally new. They will present it as such to the public, but that's because they're trying to present it as something other than a surveillance system.

Algorithms wield some power of their own. Credit scores are algorithms that cannot force you to pay your bills on time -- that takes a court decision and law enforcement. But they can encourage you to do so to avoid potential repercussions in the future, when you could be denied services. This is enough to keep many people in line without having to wield the power of the legal system. In the same way, if people believe that their actions are monitored and that they flow into some kind of algorithm that may have consequences in the future, they might behave in a way that avoids getting on the bad side of that system. To be effective, the system doesn't even need to be accurrate, people just need to think it is accurate enough. Of course, there will be always people, who see right through that, but for those you can apply more "traditional" repression.
But, people aren't stupid. The Chinese populace are reported to be pretty cynical about their government, because they have to live with it, and know how inefficient and corrupt it can be, how far it acts as a vehicle for factional interests rather than as a coherent force, whether or not that force is applied for the public good. If the Chinese government is going to convince its populace that its new systems are capable of producing any coherent relationship between action and outcome, they are going to have to ensure that there is usually such a correspondence, that a failure to achieve correspondence appears as the exception, and it's absolutely unclear that the PRC has the means to do that. It's not as if people really trust the credit system, either, they just treat it as a great, dumb beast that has to be appeased.

I agree that this is a part of what China is doing. But there is also the fact that it is now possible to collect data on a scale that the Stasi wouldn't have been able to imagine in their wet dreams. China is at the forefront to utilize that for political control. Time will tell, whether this will lead to a much stricter control of the population, whether the repression will stay on the same level, but require less resources or whether the system will implode at one point, because it cannot maintain the illusion of control.
Most of that data is noise. That's a problem which has bedeviled security agencies for centuries: the majority of intelligence is empty. Human agents are rarely in a position to filter the useful from the irrelevant on the spot, and it's even less probable that an algorithm would. The archives of security agencies across Europe are full of trivial minutiae, which agents had to spend as much time filtering as they did collecting. Perhaps there's a further algorithm that can help the filtering- but those results will themselves need reviewed and filtered, and those results will need filtered, and there's no real guarantee of anything useful coming out of that process. As above, it's really just a way of automating existing processes, the value of which lies in cost-effectiveness over efficiency. Any serious repressive measures are still going to revolve around the direct surveillance of known dissidents.
 
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I should clarify, I'm not saying that China is an authoritarian regime, or even that it's not an effective one. I'm with Tim in thinking that this was self-evident, and being a bit baffled as to why this collection of absurd laws and half-tested widgets should prompt any particular surprise or horror. What they suggest to me is a regime struggling to maintain the reigns on power, which lacks a Western confidence in its own certain existence and must go through elaborate motions to convince people that it's still in charge, rather than a regime climbing to new heights of authority.
Yes; I agree.

What struggle? Nobody is threatening their power.

I do not agree. China is an old civilisation and it is very confident now that it has technically modernised.

It seems to me that it is all about extending and intensifying their power.
I am certainly not surprised. Governments tend to do what they feel they can get away with. China has 1.3 billion people and unrest among them is a constant fear. I think the goals of of the government are three fold: stability (with the current regime in place); increased prosperity among its people as the way to maintain that stability; and greater world influence befitting China's ancient heritage. Surveillance and manipulation of behavior are just part of the package.
 
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