Chinese stability survey

[iOnlySignIn]

I still think China needs a new UP (Mandate of Heaven: +150% GA length). The current UP is completely out of control if China is the first to tech to Banking/Education/Astronomy.

Also regarding the new Religion mechanism (Unhappiness for none state religions), now my China just keep to Pantheon until they switch to Secularism. Still kills Korea just to get Buddhism. Still spreads Buddhism everywhere. Triple Monasteries FTW.

P.S. Taixue alternative ideas (although I don't think Taixue needs a nerf, I think it's the UP that needs it):

(1) +1 GS rate. It's effectively half a Free Scientist who doesn't actually do research.

(2) +1 Happiness from Confucianism. Ho Trai knock-off. Or plain +1 Happiness to offset the lack of the extra Scientist slot for population control.

(3) -15% City Maintenance. Only useful if you expand Stability Map and/or allow Silk Route for China. Currently China's running cost comes mostly from Inflation.

(4) University replacement that comes with Paper/Printing Press. Leoreth's old idea. To balance make it require Confucianism/Confucian Temple.

 

[Leoreth]

Okay, following up on that, I had some time to kill today which I used to think about China.

I'll definitely nerf their UP. The possibilities there are:

1) affects only medieval techs or earlier.
2) you can only trade techs after someone else knows them, to limit the ability to use this UP to trade.

Maybe it'll be both, we'll see.

The Chinese wonders are somewhat related to that and currently I think should be changed as follows:

Terracotta Army (Pottery, Confucianism)
+50% unit production (in the city its built in)
Unlimited experience from defeating barbarians

Porcelain Tower (Construction, Confucianism)
+10% trade route yield for every known civ you don't have OB with

I liked the specialist-oriented idea for the Tower, but since Chinese specialists are already rather OP I decided against it. I still think they should have a wonder that gives you incentives to have closed borders.

I'm also wondering whether I should change the Great Wall effect because keeping barbarians out completely totally changes the balance. Its alternate effect could be the Russian UP for barbarians in your core area, for example. I'm not sure about that, though.

And while we're on it, Himeji Castle will be changed to emulate the old Japanese UP instead.

I haven't found a good replacement for India's UP, which should remain specialist oriented in some way. If we keep the food, every specialist should at least generate extra unhappiness to balance that. Another idea that's not as drastic is have every specialist increase the amount of food stored on city growth (say, 5% up to a limit of 75%). So you still get fast city growth while having specialists, but without the city itself being better. Or we could make specialist citizens create no unhealthiness (~ 0.5 food if you're unhealthy).

I think I will keep the Taixue as it is.

Edit: two more things: does someone have a save before the Chinese foreign stability hit? And I'd like to hear your suggestions for Mongolia's extra starting units in 3000 BC.

 

[iOnlySignIn]

I'll definitely nerf their UP. The possibilities there are:

1) affects only medieval techs or earlier.
2) you can only trade techs after someone else knows them, to limit the ability to use this UP to trade.

Sounds fair. I'd still like a new UP though. The ancient Chinese and the Maya IRL really had very little in common.

Terracotta Army (Pottery, Confucianism)
+50% unit production (in the city its built in)
Unlimited experience from defeating barbarians

IMHO that is too similar to the Flavian Amphitheatre, which itself was already very similar to a Military Academy. This way, if you stack all three in your best Production city, you'll build any military unit in 1 turn, and still rack up huge amount of overflows enough to snuck in a few Wonders now and then.

Porcelain Tower (Construction, Confucianism)
+10% trade route yield for every known civ you don't have OB with

I liked the specialist-oriented idea for the Tower, but since Chinese specialists are already rather OP I decided against it. I still think they should have a wonder that gives you incentives to have closed borders.

I never get any trade route from any civ I don't have OB with. I wasn't even aware that's possible. But if it is, then they must be less profitable than domestic trade routes, and a +10% bonus to them will make little difference.

I also fail to understand how currently Chinese specialists are more OP than Arabian (La Mezquita + Madrassa), Indian (Varnas + Preah Pisnulok), Greek (Philosophy UP + Parthenon Republic + Pantheon), Roman (Forum + Parthenon Republic + Pantheon), French (Salon + Pantheon + Sistine Chapel), Byzantine/Ottoman (Hagia Sophia), or any other civ's specialists.

I'm also wondering whether I should change the Great Wall effect because keeping barbarians out completely totally changes the balance. Its alternate effect could be the Russian UP for barbarians in your core area, for example. I'm not sure about that, though.

Independents/Natives are not affected by Great Wall.

Or we could make specialist citizens create no unhealthiness (~ 0.5 food if you're unhealthy).

That's a great idea. Perhaps them create half/no Unhappiness too. Even that will be less OP than the current UP.

 

[Leoreth]

IMHO that is too similar to the Flavian Amphitheatre, which itself was already very similar to a Military Academy. This way, if you stack all three in your best Production city, you'll build any military unit in 1 turn, and still rack up huge amount of overflows enough to snuck in a few Wonders now and then.

Right. But I'd like to keep the second effect. Maybe let the wonder recreate the old Chinese UP then?

I never get any trade route from any civ I don't have OB with. I wasn't even aware that's possible. But if it is, then they must be less profitable than domestic trade routes, and a +10% bonus to them will make little difference.

You don't get trade routes to civs without OB. The 10% would apply to every trade route and stack with every civ you don't have OBs with.

I also fail to understand how currently Chinese specialists are more OP than Arabian (La Mezquita), Indian (Varnas), Greek (Philosophy UP + Parthenon Republic), Roman (Forum + Parthenon Republic), French (Salon + Pantheon), Byzantine/Ottoman (Hagia Sophia), or any other civ's specialists.

A lot of food, for starters. Hagia Sophia and the Pantheon will be adressed at some point in the future as well.

Independents/Natives are not affected by Great Wall.

They also don't behave like barbarians at all (especially the former).

That's a great idea. Perhaps them create half/no Unhappiness too. Even that will be less OP than the current UP.

Currently trying out how it feels

 

[iOnlySignIn]

You don't get trade routes to civs without OB. The 10% would apply to every trade route and stack with every civ you don't have OBs with.

I wonder if this would persuade me (A Free Market zealot) to not OB, because Foreign trade routes typically get +350% yield bonus: +100% for Foreign, +100% for Overseas, +150% for Sustained Peace.

The best this wonder would do is perhaps help China survive a period where foreign trade is horrible (after Roman/Persian collapse and before the rise of Medieval Europe).

Dunno about the Construction requirement though. Banking is more realistic and interesting (otherwise there is no Medieval/Renaissance Confucian wonder except Forbidden Palace, which is why I proposed the Humble Administrator's Garden)

They also don't behave like barbarians at all (especially the former).

I rather respect how the Impis keep wreaking havoc in my South Africa. I'd love to see Naive Horse Archers do the same in China.

 

[Leoreth]

You're right, my numbers are underwhelming. And Construction's definitely wrong, don't know how it made it in there.

 

[Tomorrow's Dawn]

1) affects only medieval techs or earlier.
2) you can only trade techs after someone else knows them, to limit the ability to use this UP to trade.

Absolutely not for #1.
The Chinese had Astronomy, Printing Press & Gunpowder long before Europeans did and those are Renaissance techs.
I'm more inclined to lean with #2; but I feel like that was already put into place when you made everyone less likely to trade techs with China (a trade penalty no other civ has).

 

[iOnlySignIn]

^ I still think we need a new UP for China. China's historical technological superiority is due to its early cultural integration and long periods of peace and unity, rather than some inherent inventiveness of its people.

Let's brainstorm some new ideas for Chinese UP. It has to satisfy 2 basic constraints:

(1) It gives China early game tech prowess while isolated with little to no trade;

(2) It does not make Human China OP late game (Renaissance & later);

And it'd better simulate one or several of the following historical properties of China:

(3) It tends to remain unified, stable, and peaceful more often compared to other civs;

(4) It is renowned for its culture which both influenced and assimilated its neighbors;

(5) It tends to favor diplomacy over military solutions in its foreign affairs;

(6) It tends to favor monarchic and authoritarian governments;

(7) It tends to favor economic isolationism, at least in late game (post Renaissance).

The main thing I have against the current UP is that it amounts to nothing more than a hidden tech rate modifier, which practically every civ in RFC has. I say this because early game China will have to beeline techs related to its UHVs, and late game China would be foolish to research a tech which does not leverage its UP. So what difference does it make, compared to a flat +15% or 20% research bonus? What difference is it compared to the Mayan UP?

 

[iOnlySignIn]

I have a few ideas (other than my +150% GA length idea):

(A) The Power of Meritocracy: -75% cost of Library, Courthouse;

(B) The Power of the Central Kingdom: +1 , +1 per level in all cities;

(C) The Power of Tianxia: +1 Happiness in all cities per 2 foreign civs you don't have contact with (LOL, a bit of self-mockery here);

What do you think?

 

[Leoreth]

Don't impress me that much actually. I would prefer increased GA length to either of those. But I'm not inclined to change their UP anyway. This isn't just a flat science modifier. It influences your strategy, as you admitted yourself: beelining is intended, and imo historical (the UHV directs this ability into historical directions, but if you play for something else you can tech ahead somewhere else).

What makes this ability so volatile is the positive feedback that this UP creates with the amount of trades an early advancement enables. The idea behind the UP is more to enable being advanced in certain aspects but lag behind in others; I admit that the current implementation fails to achieve this but I think that can be fixed.

I'd really like to avoid to limit the UP to certain eras, because then it really starts to feel like the Maya UP. The general idea was that once the Europeans have spawned, they'll overtake you and will render the UP's effect void anyway. This doesn't happen at the moment, which again, is not a problem of principles, but balancing.

 

[iOnlySignIn]

^ Ha, but 3000 BC China's main tech rival is actually Babylon & Greece (Writing race), Rome (Mathematics race), Japan (Machinery race), and India (Calendar race and Paper race). It's actually the opposite of what you said - once China overtakes these early rivals it becomes invincible. A few Privateers and Europe/Arabia/Turkey are shut down for about half a millennia.

The very reason that Babylon/Egypt's UPs lead to historical fates for these civs is that they boost early game only. By contrast, China/India have UPs that become really powerful late game.

Last but not least, I'm not sure if it's a good idea to fix any feature. Only with change comes replayability IMO, because the map is the same every time.

 

[Leoreth]

Well, I think it's good that you have competition early on, so you have to prioritize to benefit from your UP. The problem is, as you said, that once you've overcome this opposition it becomes too easy, which imo can be addressed.

The health bonus will already have a diminishing returns effect for India, because it becomes less powerful once you learn how to increase your health from other sources.

I don't know what you're referring to with change and replayability in this context ...?

 

[iOnlySignIn]

I don't know what you're referring to with change and replayability in this context ...?

A primary reason that I like your mod better than any other form of Civilization game is because you keep updating it, keep adding new features. Important, game-changing new features such as new UU/UB/UP/UHVs, new Wonders, new mechanisms (e.g. Trading Company event), so that each and every edition is like a new game. It is by far the Civ game that will have taken the longest time for me to get bored of. It is so interesting that I registered an account on this forum specifically to talk about it, something I normally won't do (as my username suggests).

That is why I had hoped that you'd be trying out new features (e.g. a new Chinese UP) just for the sake of trying it out. That is why I keep suggesting features that might be less optimal than current ones in terms of gameplay. I like change and variety - that's why I find your work fascinating. I could implement all those ideas myself (and I did, for most of them), but I wish to see others enjoy them too.

But again, I am not you, and this is your project. Which is why I just explained my motives to you. You can tell me to shut up whenever you wish, but you'd still have my support.

 

[Leoreth]

Okay. But the current Chinese UP is a new feature. It hasn't even been officially released yet!

 

[civ_king]

Okay. But the current Chinese UP is a new feature. It hasn't even been officially released yet!

It's been four and a half months since that feature was released, it doesn't feel like a new feature anymore

 

[Leoreth]

Sure, but not everyone plays this mod from SVN.

 

[ramz711]

Don't understand why not...

 

[iOnlySignIn]

Maybe instead of choose leaders, we can have choose UP?

I'm going to play a Silk Route China game next (enable Silke Route for China) to see how its Stability is affected by controlling Central Asia (as it did during Tang dynasty) according to the current Stability Map.

I think an Oil should be added in Manchuria, to represent Daqing, something China and Japan can fight over, and which enables Japan to get Oil before Plastics. A Japanese navy of Galleons loaded with Infantry is not much less effective, but a bit embarrassing.

Or we can add a non-geographic Oil on Honshu, for gameplay purposes, just like the Oil around Wien. However, I think there should be an Oil in Manchuria instead of Honshu, and in Ukraine instead of at Wien. The latter would encourage Germany to grab Kiev early (as AI Germany usually does).

The Oil in western China should also be moved to the Tarim Basin for realism as well as to encourage China to annex Xinjiang.

Also, maybe an additional Oil should spawn in Venezuela in 2000.

 

[Kilroy Was Here]

Maybe instead of choose leaders, we can have choose UP?

I'm going to play a Silk Route China game next (enable Silke Route for China) to see how its Stability is affected by controlling Central Asia (as it did during Tang dynasty) according to the current Stability Map.

I think an Oil should be added in Manchuria, to represent Daqing, something China and Japan can fight over, and which enables Japan to get Oil before Plastics. A Japanese navy of Galleons loaded with Infantry is not much less effective, but a bit embarrassing.

Or we can add a non-geographic Oil on Honshu, for gameplay purposes, just like the Oil around Wien. However, I think there should be an Oil in Manchuria instead of Honshu, and in Ukraine instead of at Wien. The latter would encourage Germany to grab Kiev early (as AI Germany usually does).

The Oil in western China should also be moved to the Tarim Basin for realism as well as to encourage China to annex Xinjiang.

Also, maybe an additional Oil should spawn in Venezuela in 2000.

These are all fairly sound ideas and would provide a better reason to settle Manchuria in the first place, in the case of the oil. And Kiev getting even more overpowered? Hoo boy.

 

[iOnlySignIn]

Kiev getting even more overpowered? Hoo boy.

It is not nearly as overpowered as Wien, Frankfurt, Moscow, or even St. Petersburg, provided that you settle your cities at sufficient distance from each other. Moreover, if is not sufficiently powerful there will be less incentive for Germany & Russia to fight over it.

But I agree, the Iron around Kiev should be removed if an Oil is to be added.