Chinese stability survey

[civ_king]

Sounds like we should develop Area Powers which give bonuses to certain eras, for certain civs. East Asia gets Mandate of Heaven, South and South-East Asia gets Syncreticism (get culture from all religions in a city), etc.

 

[iOnlySignIn]

Here's a simple idea:

(1) New UP (Mandate of Heaven): +100% (or +150%) Golden Age length

(2) New UHV (instead of 100 units): Experience 4 Golden Ages by 1800

Tweak the Chinese AI to be more likely to burn Golden Ages.

This will

(A) Simulate China's historical rise and fall

(B) Improve the stability of China as it gets less anarchy and has better economy

(C) Offers interesting challenges in GA timings wrt the Four Great Inventions and Four Cathedrals UHVs

(D) Synergies with Taixue UB and specialist economy

(E) Encourage late game Communism (should you go for Domination/Space Race) since the type of improvement that benefits most from a Golden Age is the Watermill/Windmill

(F) Prevents late game China from getting overpowered or underpowered (as is the case with current UP, especially in Human hands).

Also, to balance, make Mausoleum at Halicarnassus require Zoroastrianism (which will make it the *second* Zoroastrian wonder after their shrine, woohoo) so that Human China player cannot abuse GAs.

Edit: Or not. Human Greece can build *both* the Pantheon and the Hagia Sophia. So why not let China abuse their GAs in the same way Greece abuse their GPs? Would be fun.

 

[BenZL43]

I'd rather prescript Mausoleum needs Zoroastrianism rather seeing China built it too often..

(And I doubt if they really know what Halicarnassus means -a city name, yeah- )

 

[Tomorrow's Dawn]

The Power of Invention UP spent quite a bit of time during testing already though,
so I don't know if it's good to be testing a whole new UP again right when Leoreth wants to release soon.
Initially, The Power of Invention gave a 25% bonus towards undiscovered techs,
but it actually translated into a 33% bonus in game terms.
Leoreth did some tweaking, and at 20%, it translates correctly into the 25% bonus.

The Mandate of Heaven UP sounds like a great idea, but I can't help thinking that it'd be best represented as an regional mechanic.

 

[AOS9001]

Regional mechanics sound like a grand idea.

 

[Tomorrow's Dawn]

After giving it some more thought, I think the Mandate of Heaven would translate best as a sort of "capture the flag" mechanic. Represent it say, as a unit and have China start out with it, (or alternatively, automatically receive it upon teching Monarchy). The effects only apply when an East Asian civ (China, Corea, Mongolia, Japan) acquire the Mandate of Heaven; encouraging war from a human player perspective.

Just a preliminary draft:

Default Bonuses:
+1 Happiness in all cities
No anarchy for switching civics so long as you remain in Hereditary Rule
Increase the threshold for civs willing to vassal to you
?
Viceroy:
+4 foreign relations with East Asian civs
+3 Stability to all categories on Viceroy
Monarch:
+3 foreign relations with East Asian civs
+2 Stability to all categories on Monarch
Emperor:
+2 foreign relations with East Asian civs
+1 Stability to all categories on Emperor

Anyone have any additional ideas?

I was also thinking we could have a similar mechanic like Holy Roman Emperor for Europe (like in Europa Universalis III) or controlling Jerusalem if we're also going into the topic of other regional powers.

 

[iOnlySignIn]

The Power of Invention UP spent quite a bit of time during testing already though,
so I don't know if it's good to be testing a whole new UP again right when Leoreth wants to release soon.

IMO the current UP makes the game too restrictive. You're pretty much forced to beeline and tech trade (both of which I greatly enjoy, btw). If you do that you're teching at 2~3 difficulty levels down (on Emperor, it's like you're teching on Viceroy, or even easier), and after you reach Banking and Representation the game is automatically won. It gets repetitive after one or two tries. If you don't beeline or tech trade you're playing with no UP. If you play on Viceroy it's even easier. Even AI China (who play on Monarch) had snatched Democracy/Nationalism first in my games.

Furthermore, if you play your early tech/build up aggressively enough (snatch a few good Classical Wonders like Pyramids or GLH), India becomes pretty much your only Tech rival/partner. I played two China games, in both Rome built Colossus but can't keep up in Tech. India built every Classical Wonder I didn't except Sphinx (Egypt) and Hanging Garden (Babylon) because I kept asking them to switch to Pantheon in my trade deals. They become really destabilized this way without their old UP, but I get much better trade from them than if they're weak.

The Mandate of Heaven UP sounds like a great idea, but I can't help thinking that it'd be best represented as an regional mechanic.

Anything too complicated and awesome (like the one you suggested) won't be fair for the civs outside of Asia.

What I think is fair is an Asian equivalent to the Apostolic Palace (which will always appear in Europe nowadays), i.e. a Wonder which will grant some kind of conference/UN-like powers long before Nationalism/Mass Media. The position will be elected (like the Pope in Europe) but vote numbers are based on population and # military units (to give Japan and Mongolia some early chances at winning, and the current 100 unit Chinese UHV to be of some use), and offers different advantages, e.g.

(1) Can demand Gold/Tech/resource of another Asian civ once every number of turns (without attitude penalty);

(2) Can impose arbitrary cease fire agreements between any 2 Asian civs;

(3) Open Borders/Peace Treaties with every other Asian civ;

(4) Can rally all Asian civs against a foreign colonial invader (dunno if this is necessary as Europeans suck against Asia at the moment).

One peculiar feature I think would be very important:

The Mandate of Heaven will leave an elected civ some time *before* the next election, allowing for a period of greater uncertainty and chaos where civs (Mongolia or Japan) can declare and grab large amounts of land/population without penalties. And sometimes when no one is dominent enough in population/military, no one is elected.

TL;DR A straightforward Stability/Diplo/No Anarchy boost is too OP and unfair for civs of other regions. IMO an Asian version of The Apostolic Palace would be more fair and interesting.

 

[Tomorrow's Dawn]

TL;DR A straightforward Stability/Diplo/No Anarchy boost is too OP and unfair for civs of other regions. IMO an Asian version of The Apostolic Palace would be better.

I suggested a Holy Roman Emperor mechanic a la Europa Universalis III as well.
Though I haven't worked out what it might do. People seem to like the idea of a regional mechanic though, and if trading companies and the Silk Road have a place in this mod, I think it's fair to say that regional mechanics would too. I think an AP equivalent would be really weak because I don't know if anyone actually even utilizes the AP towards their own advantage.

We'll just have to wait for Leoreth to drop by and give us a piece of his mind.

 

[iOnlySignIn]

I suggested a Holy Roman Emperor mechanic a la Europa Universalis III as well.
Though I haven't worked out what it might do. People seem to like the idea of a regional mechanic though, and if trading companies and the Silk Road have a place in this mod, I think it's fair to say that regional mechanics would too. I think an AP equivalent would be really weak because I don't know if anyone actually even utilizes the AP towards their own advantage.

We'll just have to wait for Leoreth to drop by and give us a piece of his mind.

AP needs a major overhaul. It's pretty useless as of now, especially for me since I'm a Liberalism/Reformation addict. For many times I've declared Church of England independent of the Pope. I got excommunicated, I suppose, but I never cared about AP votes anyways since the decisions are marginal for England. I never had a prize put on my head for being a bloody heathen though. I guess the Pope understands I did it for the good of the English people instead of for divorcing my Catholic wife?

In RFCE Reformation immediately starts religious wars. It's especially hilarious if I found Protestantism as Spain.

 

[Tomorrow's Dawn]

I'm a Reformation Addict too.

Ever I since I captured London & Rome as China and the
Reformation gave me 500 gold just because those cities were Catholic,
I've loved making the switch.

I think Leoreth removed that capability for non-Euro civs though after I did that.
If you think about it, that makes the Reformation, in effect, the first regional specific thing.
So I feel it's fair if East Asia gets a Mandate of Heaven thing too.

 

[civ_king]

Regional mechanics does seem like a logical jump

 

[need my speed]

The Mongols in my current game are quite good. They conquered China and all, all the way up to (and including) Egypt and Russia. Russia respawned, however, but the Mongols are stable and they have about 500 points more (they have 1146) than the next civilization (the Viking Union, surprisingly, with 684). I don't know whether the Mongols conquered the Indian subcontinent or not (I don't think so but I'm really not sure), but India has collapsed a good many turns ago and the Mughals are all right, so...

The Mongols, I think, also held some of Arabian peninsula, causing Arabia to collapse, but the Ottomans retook that and now also control the Arabian peninsula. Still, the Mongols are stable and still conquering; I saw them took a Spanish city (and another city from someone else) about 10 or 20 turns ago. The Spanish are in control of Spain, the Italian peninsula (although Germany just captured Rome), Greece, and northern Germany, so the Mongols probably took Constantinople or such.

Pseudo-Edit: Yes, the Mongols took Constantinople, I just checked it. It's 1455 AD, playing the latest SVN on Marathon speed by the way.

EDIT: This was in reply to those who were saying the Mongols are super weak.

 

[iOnlySignIn]

The Mongols in my current game are quite good. They conquered China and all, all the way up to (and including) Egypt and Russia. Russia respawned, however, but the Mongols are stable and they have about 500 points more (they have 1146) than the next civilization (the Viking Union, surprisingly, with 684). I don't know whether the Mongols conquered the Indian subcontinent or not (I don't think so but I'm really not sure), but India has collapsed a good many turns ago and the Mughals are all right, so...

The Mongols, I think, also held some of Arabian peninsula, causing Arabia to collapse, but the Ottomans retook that and now also control the Arabian peninsula. Still, the Mongols are stable and still conquering; I saw them took a Spanish city (and another city from someone else) about 10 or 20 turns ago. The Spanish are in control of Spain, the Italian peninsula (although Germany just captured Rome), Greece, and northern Germany, so the Mongols probably took Constantinople or such.

Pseudo-Edit: Yes, the Mongols took Constantinople, I just checked it. It's 1455 AD, playing the latest SVN on Marathon speed by the way.

EDIT: This was in reply to those who were saying the Mongols are super weak.

I guess you're playing 600AD start? In the latest SVN update Mongolia seems stronger, and China weaker, in the 600AD start compared to the 3000BC start. I suspect this is because of the snowballing effect of China's new UP.

In the original DoC/RFC it was the reverse. 3000BC China was weak and often collapse well before Mongol spawn, but 600AD China usually roflpwns Mongolia because China starts with Great Wall already built. China's new UP has really reversed that effect - all the more reasons we should keep it.

 

[Tomorrow's Dawn]

Part of me wants to see Singapore & Malaysia included in the Chinese stability map too, but that's probably pushing it.
If it counts, I can vouch for the fact (through family) that despite being British in law, much of Singapore is very culturally Chinese.
But I digress.

I think at this point, we should begin compiling points that everyone can reach an unanimous consensus with:

-China needs a larger stability map
(i.e. Tibet, Xinjiang, Northern Vietnam, North Corea, Manchuria)
-Mandate of Heaven regional mechanic
-The replacement of the 100 units UHV
-Xiongnu, Xianbei, Rouran, Jurchen independents to harass China

Is everyone in agreement with these four points?

 

[iOnlySignIn]

-China needs a larger stability map
(i.e. Tibet, Xinjiang, Northern Vietnam, North Corea, Manchuria)
-Mandate of Heaven regional mechanic
-The replacement of the 100 units UHV
-Xiongnu, Xianbei, Rouran, Jurchen independents to harass China

Is everyone in agreement with these four points?

I agree.

All of these are needed. The current China game is just too uneventful.

Also, note to Leoreth: Perhaps the First Contact stability penalty does not exist explicitly,

but the fact remains that China experiences an inexplicable sharp drop (-20~-30) in Foreign category of Stability just around the time Rome/ancient Mediterranean are becoming destabilized (circa 400 AD), and that this drop is far more severe if you have contact with those civs (whether Open Borders or not) than if you play isolationist (only contact/trade with India/Persia).

If it's not First Contact instability, then it's the "Collapsing neighbors hurt your stability" being bugged and applied (and reapplied) multiple times.

 

[Power_of_Beer]

I disagree with independent neighbours. They are always too weak to have any influence, and if you give them a large army they will split it and send it around the globe to another city. And honestly, I don't want to see Viking or German Manchuria. Which will happen.

What is needed are stronger Japan and Korea, and Khmer and Thais also need a buff.
-Korea is a joke currently, they tech way too slow, they have low production, and mostly they cant expand anywhere.
-Japan cripples itself with awful city placement, and quickly falls behind in tech (and NEVER comes back in the modern times). Amphibious invasions are non-existent. Isn't there a mod that makes the AI much better in warfare (Better AI)?
-Khmer and Thai, well they just... do nothing. Khmer founds 1 city, and just waits to be replaced with the Thais, in every game. The Thais are not much better.

The Mongols are the only threat to Chinas AI, but a human player is of course prepared and can crush them.

 

[Tomorrow's Dawn]

I disagree with independent neighbours. They are always too weak to have any influence, and if you give them a large army they will split it and send it around the globe to another city. And honestly, I don't want to see Viking or German Manchuria. Which will happen.

I see your point about this.
Although looking in the OMG thread, those might not necessarily be bad things.

How about we change The Great Wall's effects then and have Gaul/Germania style barb stacks move on China? And since they'll spawn in veritable hordes of 3-10 depending on difficulty, they'll flip over to the Mongols on spawn and give AI China a contender to deal with.

What is needed are stronger Japan and Korea, and Khmer and Thais also need a buff.
-Korea is a joke currently, they tech way too slow, they have low production, and mostly they cant expand anywhere.
-Japan cripples itself with awful city placement, and quickly falls behind in tech (and NEVER comes back in the modern times).

I completely disagree on the idea that a stronger Corea & Japan will somehow have any bearing on China's relative strength. I've seen a live Japan that's bigger and more advanced (or at least farther in score) than China in at least half of the example pictures. Maybe sometimes a war between China & Corea will be a little more game-changing in respect to how China fares against the Mongols, but again, it all comes back to that specific relationship of China & Mongolia.

Corea definitely needs buffs and some tweaks to their game plan, as outlined in the other thread.
Just don't expect them to be a powerhouse if that's what you want.
I'd give Japan a little buff in the form of moving that horrendous light green in Vancouver down to Northern California (where you know, the last surviving Japantowns actually exist), Hawaii & maybe a little bit in Peru.
Expand their "colonizer map" to places where Japanese immigrants actually settled and not fictionally took over.

EDIT: About improving Corea, Thai & Khmer. There just will be certain civs that have a specific range of power they're supposed to occupy. i.e. in this case for little civs like Khmer is to typically to vassalize to somebody. Did you expect anything more? If you're talking about improving them to the point of being a "top-tier" civ, you're going to have to make the broad case for civs like Mali, Ethiopia, Aztec, Maya, Egypt, Inca & others as well because they all occupy that lower stratum of civs that just don't have enough clout. Besides, I find the claim that Khmer & Thai aren't doing well to be a little preposterous considering just about almost half of all pictures of DoC so far have featured Khmer/Thai controlling half of China.

 

[Power_of_Beer]

No, the smaller civs certainly shouldn't be too strong, at least most of the time. I'm really no expert in far east history and looking into the wikipedia article i read that Korea introduced currency in 1731, so maybe their backwardness isn't that unrealistic . It would just be nice if a human-controlled China would face some challenge in terms of military conflicts with its neighbours (besides Mongols).

 

[Tomorrow's Dawn]

All of China's serious threats in antiquity were either proto-Mongols (Xianbei/Rouran), Turks (who after Tang Dynasty pushed as deep as Kazakhstan/Uzbekistan never became a serious threat again) or Jurchens/Manchus. Corean states all the way up to end of Joseon & early Japanese states up until the end of the Heian period formed a "brotherly" relationship towards China. Japan until her modernization, was not that terrible of a threat either; they lost the Imjin War (late 1500s) to the Corean-Chinese coalition and had some serious holes in their fighting strategies. Although Japan had an edge with their infantry in most battles and won most land battles, their tendency to mass ashigaru infantry resulted in hideous casualty rates against the Corean hwachas. On the sea, Japanese naval strategy was mostly relegated as a transport role, resulting in even worse defeats at the hands of the Corean coast guards at sea.

Also, even before the Imjin Wars, there was this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Baekgang
The worst naval defeat suffered by the Japanese in antiquity.
What I'm saying is successful naval application by the Japanese AI until Modern Era is completely out of the question.

Other than the Sui & Tang periods, Corea was typically quite cozy with China.
If we wanted to model the game after real life, we would lower the tendency for war
between them but I believe that would make the game too deterministic.

As for barbarian foes:

We can give China those foes if we spawn Gaul/Germania style barbarians and direct them towards China.
Change the Great Wall's effects so that barbarians are allowed to push into Chinese territory. Problem solved.

So if people want to change the effect of the Great Wall, what should it be?

 

[iOnlySignIn]

-Korea is a joke currently, they tech way too slow, they have low production, and mostly they cant expand anywhere.

That is actually historical. Korea never expanded very much and their tech/production was never anything comparable to China or Japan until the 20th century.

We could change this by modifying the map. If Europe/Japan deserves to be upsized, then the Korea peninsula does to. 3~4 extra tiles will do a lot of good.

-Japan cripples itself with awful city placement, and quickly falls behind in tech (and NEVER comes back in the modern times).

The placement can easily be changed by modifying their min settle distance to 3 instead of 2. They fall behind in tech because Tokugawa AI would never Open Borders (despite all their foreign trade routes being Overseas). I'd love to change that, but it's somewhat historical. Best we could do is to make Toku more willing to Open Borders with Portugal, Netherlands, and (perhaps) Indonesia. But this requires Portuguese/Dutch AIs to find Japan fast, which they never do.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nanban_trade

Amphibious invasions are non-existent. Isn't there a mod that makes the AI much better in warfare (Better AI)?

They pwned my China's coastal defenses with surprise Samurai landings. Totally bypassing my superior navy. I was only saved by superior numbers and the magical power of Himeji Castle (which I built in Beijing. Ironic, isn't it).

-Khmer and Thai, well they just... do nothing. Khmer founds 1 city, and just waits to be replaced with the Thais, in every game. The Thais are not much better.

That's historical. They had little historical impact on China or Japan or Korea.

The Mongols are the only threat to Chinas AI, but a human player is of course prepared and can crush them.

Should we make the Mongols unbeatable for Human China? Don't think so.

The current problem is Mongolia is too weak on 3000 BC but too strong on 600 AD, for AI China at least (I never play as 600 AD China because I hate the city placements). China's UP really makes it more and more powerful as time goes on.

I played as England on 3000 BC and 600 AD starts. Both Emperor, Epic. On 3000 BC China wiped out Mongolia in 1 turn using some 15 Cannons and 35 Horse Archers. On 600 AD Mongolia occupied China completely except 1 city in Tibet.

That is not a difference that can be explained by chaos theory alone. Some definitive mechanism is at work there, and the only definitive mechanism that I can see relevant to this is China's UP.

I suggest all who thinks Mongolia strong play on 3000 BC instead. Preferably Epic/Marathon. Then you'll see how beastly China's UP is.