Christian afterlife

What are your thoughts on my "interpretation"?

  • I've NOT heard of your explanation before, I think it's right

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I'm not countering what you believe, I know you don't believe it. I'm refuting you for believing that Christians hold on to that belief. Because they simply don't.
Alright so I'm having slight trouble parsing this

I am essentially saying most christians believe they go to heaven or hell (or purgatory or whatever) immediately after that, but they should instead believe nothing happens for however long until they are bobily ressurected and then judged at the end of the world.

I don't look at how various books in the bible contribute to this view in my analysis here.

So are you saying I'm wrong for believing christians believe in "particular judgement", or that I'm wrong for believeing that they don't?

as I said above I'm not presicely doing either, I'm judging them for not following their religion correctly. If anyone thinks this is not my place to do so I don't care I will have my cake and I will eat it

also don't priests have to be theologians, isn't that a thing?
 
Oh, is somebody doing a religion you don't follow, wrong?
 
That's exactly what I said, I already made my own post seem stupid and silly

again not adding anything new
 
also I do live in a society that's greatly shaped by the religion which is why I feel like very unapologetic about this kind of criticism
 
Of course.
 
I don't doubt what a native speaker of Greek, in this case Kyriakos, is saying when he conjugates verbs.

As to comparing one version to 20 other versions how does one find the truth?
If 20 scholars with PHDs in mathematics told me that 2+2 = 5 and then a high school student told me that 2+2 = 4 I would check the math and certainly 2+2 = 4. Now my trust in the 20 scholars would come into doubt.

The main point I'm making in this particular verse in Galatians is that saying I am crucified (co-crucified) in Christ implies a one time event that is permanent.

Saying I have been crucified with Christ could mean that I was crucified at one point but not currently. What must I do to maintain my salvation? This is heresy. The bible says there will be many false teachers, but you brethren, do not be deceived.

The whole point of God's free gift of salvation is that it is a one time event that is permanent. It's that easy, but man, man has a tendency to make things complicated. It's very hard for the proud to humble themselves and acknowledge that Christ did all the work for us. All we have to do is believe.
 
The actual tense part can't be a debate, indeed. In Greek -mai is simply only the ending in present tense singular first person passive voice.
I have to suppose that the translations where they used past did so because they didn't feel like including any notes about either historic present tense or (as appears equally or more likely) subjunctive present tense.

As @Moff Jerjerrod posts, the meaning of the verse would be that the (co) crucifixion is continuous, not something which happened at some point in the past and then changed. If subjunctive it also means that it is optional (ie if you have faith, you too can do this, etc).

As a side-note, the original has συνεσταύρωμαι as one word (with syn as a prefix), which of course doesn't allow any meaning of a phrase such as "through Christ I am crucified", since that would use "syn" as its own term in the sentence: 'Syn Christo stauromai' etc.

I also briefly wondered if there is even a (granted, incredibly minute and virtually impossible) chance that the "e" in synestauromai was not there due to rules about well-known progressions of consonants in complex -prefix+core- terms that spawn a vowel (e in this case), but because it would be past continuous (Greek past continuous often has the verb begin with an "e"), thus "I was being crucified with Christ". But again, there is no past continuous in Greek (ancient or modern) that can end in -mai.

But by now we are moving in theoretical ground for little reason; I have to imagine that @Plotinus (where is he, anyway, we are discussing this on account of him :) ) will have easy access to some scholar of Greek (even of that time period) to provide a definitive answer.

Anyway, found another site with endings of verbs (ancient Greek) : https://www.greek-language.gr/digitalResources/ancient_greek/tools/verb_forms/annex.html

Relevant here is the -ωμαι ending (synestauromai, it is with an omega in Greek in that To Galateans verse), of which you (again) can read that it is in subjunctive present tense passive voice:

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(Υπ stands for "Υποτακτική" = Subjunctive)
 
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Hi Kyriakos,

Here is another word that I need help with. It is ἄλλο

Does this mean "another" as in something similar to something else but just another physical copy or does ἄλλο mean "another" as in something entirely different from anything else? I hope I am making sense. The word is used in this passage:

Καὶ εἶδον ἄλλο θηρίον ἀναβαῖνον ἐκ τῆς γῆς, καὶ εἶχεν κέρατα δύο ὅμοια ἀρνίῳ, καὶ ἐλάλει ὡς δράκων.
 
Hi Kyriakos,

Here is another word that I need help with. It is ἄλλο

Does this mean "another" as in something similar to something else but just another physical copy or does ἄλλο mean "another" as in something entirely different from anything else? I hope I am making sense. The word is used in this passage:

Καὶ εἶδον ἄλλο θηρίον ἀναβαῖνον ἐκ τῆς γῆς, καὶ εἶχεν κέρατα δύο ὅμοια ἀρνίῳ, καὶ ἐλάλει ὡς δράκων.
It can mean either. I suppose the passage is from the Revelation?
"allo" can mean both "another" (tied/similar to the previous) or "different". Pretty much the same when you write "another" in English; on its own you can't always tell with certainty if the author means that it is crucially different, or simply distinct due to coming in another moment in time in a progression.

"and then I saw another beast, rising up from the earth, and it had two horns identical to those of lambs and made the noise of a dragon" (loose translation on the final part; the verb there can also mean "speak", but I don't recall if the "dragon" spoke in some other passage)
 
I am essentially saying most christians believe they go to heaven or hell (or purgatory or whatever) immediately after that, but they should instead believe nothing happens for however long until they are bobily ressurected and then judged at the end of the world.

No you said that Christians believe they become "angels" when they go to heaven. They don't.

As for this bodily resurrection, it's only found in the Book of Revelation. It's open to interpretation whether or not nothing happens after one's dead and simply waits to get resurrected or wether or not there is a wait over period whereby God stores you in Heaven or Hell until Judgement Day and then resurrects you. Many people believe in many things because to be honest, no one really understands what Revelation was trying to get at. The phropecy is meant to be revealed (that is properly understood) only when these events begin happening, hence the name of the book, revelation, which means to reveal/uncover/to make properly understood.

I don't look at how various books in the bible contribute to this view in my analysis here.

I mean you should. Especially if you want to understand Christians since that is where all the various beliefs stem from. It's the primary source.
 
I love this stuff 🤤
 
No you said that Christians believe they become "angels" when they go to heaven. They don't.

As for this bodily resurrection, it's only found in the Book of Revelation. It's open to interpretation whether or not nothing happens after one's dead and simply waits to get resurrected or wether or not there is a wait over period whereby God stores you in Heaven or Hell until Judgement Day and then resurrects you. Many people believe in many things because to be honest, no one really understands what Revelation was trying to get at. The phropecy is meant to be revealed (that is properly understood) only when these events begin happening, hence the name of the book, revelation, which means to reveal/uncover/to make properly understood.



I mean you should. Especially if you want to understand Christians since that is where all the various beliefs stem from. It's the primary source.
Afaik, in christian orthodoxy (and not just orthodox christianity :jesus: ) the resurrection of the dead is common dogma. They are (if I recall correctly) to then be judged by god.
Franz Kafka likens it to emergency court proceedings.
 
Figuring out which is the true interpretation is ridiculously easy. The cohort with the true interpretation (vs. the confused or self-serving interpretation) will have faith sufficient to move mountains but consistently get murdered by authorities and people pushing false interpretations. Simple evolutionary theory indicates that these set of beliefs will be in the minority (the murdering cohort will outnumber the pacifist cohort). From the outside, I just watch for someone who can regenerate amputees but I'm mostly surrounded by congregations that are impressed by placebo.
 
Figuring out which is the true interpretation is ridiculously easy. The cohort with the true interpretation (vs. the confused or self-serving interpretation) will have faith sufficient to move mountains but consistently get murdered by authorities and people pushing false interpretations. Simple evolutionary theory indicates that these set of beliefs will be in the minority (the murdering cohort will outnumber the pacifist cohort). From the outside, I just watch for someone who can regenerate amputees but I'm mostly surrounded by congregations that are impressed by placebo.
Maybe they have the true interpretation but not the faith required to live it, the mountains don't move.
 
Maybe they have the true interpretation but not the faith required to live it, the mountains don't move.
That would be a numbers game. If there are a sufficient number of people who (a) believe and (b) have the correct belief, then there will be some overlap in the Venn Diagram.
Like, obviously I could have the correct interpretation but not have sufficient belief in the correct interpretation. I could have the blueprints to build an airplane but not have sufficient belief in the design in order to build one and fly. OTOH, if I am surrounded by people constantly building death traps from blueprints they swear on, then we know that their understanding of reality is incorrect (so, even if the blueprints are 'true', their understanding is not).
Of course, I have no way of proving that the blueprints are false, but my behavior indicates that I think they are.
 
Mountains don't move? Seas don't rise? Miracles don't walk today when they once did not?

You don't constantly look around and boggle when you take the time to sort out what you're looking at?
 
It doesn't have to be a numbers game at all, much like being a 20 feet tall human isn't possible despite humans having height and some being taller than others; in a diagram you can always have an >x subgroup, which can stay empty.
If it was possible to prove that while faith was sufficient, the miracle still didn't happen, faith would only keep existing if miracles were witnessed => here a group staying empty can be up to required for the drawing of the diagram to continue.

Imo it is a phenomenon which doesn't exist due to its manifested self, but the dynamics of human thought.
It's not just a religious phenomenon either; no one can identify properties of a material object without using anthropomorphism.
 
Mountains don't move? Seas don't rise? Miracles don't walk today when they once did not?

You don't constantly look around and boggle when you take the time to sort out what you're looking at?
NIV: Jesus replied, “Truly I tell you, if you have faith and do not doubt, not only can you do what was done to the fig tree, but also you can say to this mountain, ‘Go, throw yourself into the sea,’ and it will be done."

Either this is a higher standard of moving mountains through faith, or Christianity is a pro global warming apocalypse-resurrection-death cult.
 
Oh literal thinkers. Poor souls.

Faith. Faith. Over time. You can certainly lay the groundwork to move mountains, create miracles. Perhaps polish some of them up real nice. But why would the biggest ones finish in your poor, limited, span? Power great and terrible, we possess. Minds of metal and wheels. We were given dominion, right?
 
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Until you can read the lines your reading past/between the lines will lead you astray.
 
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